$55s: Am I Missing Pushes?

[Unarmed]

I folded all of these. Thoughts? My image is good. All hands were folded to me. Still getting adjusted to the tighter calling standards at the 55s.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t3540)
Hero (t780)
Button (t535)
SB (t1775)
BB (t2335)
UTG (t1035)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t4560)
Hero (t930)
MP (t1815)
Button (t2135)
SB (t560)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t4560)
Hero (t1030)
Button (t1590)
SB (t2235)
BB (t585)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t4560)
Hero (t1030)
MP (t1590)
Button (t1650)
SB (t1170)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t4110)
Hero (t1960)
Button (t1340)
SB (t1550)
BB (t1040)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[curtains]

The A8o is a clear allin.

I usually fold the KJo and the 54o hand.

I go allin with the KTo, but the clearest allin IMO is the A8o.

[Iamafish]

You fold KJo, but move in with KTo?

[curtains]

With KJo you have 9x the BB, with KTo you have about 5.5x the BB.

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]
You fold KJo, but move in with KTo?

[/ QUOTE ]
u have a long way to go buddy. Cards are only a factor in ur desiton, stacks and postions might be more important than cards.

[beeyjay]

I think the A8 is a fold. The K10 is push.

[curtains]

The A8o isnt a fold, and it's pretty clearcut.

[Iamafish]

lol...too funny.

Sry, Im 3 tabling NL right now, I wasn't thinking he was reffering to the situations in the post.

[valenzuela]

I dont see whats so funny about my post, and yep we all misunderstand each other time to time.

[beeyjay]

the blinds are so low. After the blinds you're still going to have 800 chips and perfect stacks to steal from behind you in the blinds. Why push 900 chips into 4 people one of which has 500 chips and could call for that reason and one of which has 4500 chips and could call for that reason.

[beeyjay]

wow I'm dumb. I was looking at the stacks for the next hand. Ya the A8 is a clear push.

[Iamafish]

Deleted.

[valenzuela]

The more "u" the more easy the push is IMO.
1)push.
2)fold.
3)puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuush.
4)puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ush.
5)fold.

[microbet]

That's not so dumb. Usually the hands are on top of the stacks when posted.

I agree with curtains calls.

It's kind of funny when a 16 year old tells someone they have a long way to go.

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]


It's kind of funny when a 16 year old tells someone they have a long way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok rub it on...

[microbet]

Not that pusing 3 is horrible, but

1) cards not very good
2) position not very good - some decent stacks acting after you
3) no much FE on BB - not that facing a random hand is terrible with K4, but it would be better to get the blinds without a showdown.

[Iamafish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


It's kind of funny when a 16 year old tells someone they have a long way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok rub it on...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to pop back at you.

But since this is poker...gotta stay humble.

[microbet]

That's "rub it in" not "rub it on." You're going to have to rub it on yourself.

Also, feel free to make fun of me for being so very very old.

[valenzuela]

part of the fun is being insulted and insulting back. Anyway I misread the hand and I thought I was the button so its just a push, btw(WARNING: variency whining ahead)im on 15 ootm streak /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

1.push
2.fold
3.fold
4.push
5.fold
K4o (hand 3) seems like a fairly easy fold to me. You don't have a good hand and won't be taking down the blinds often enough. Also, not to start this argument again, but since you will be getting called often here you will be showing down a push w K4o which definitly won't be helpping you out in your later steals. If this play is even +EV it is marginal at best and I don't think that the variance is worth it.

[EasilyFound]

The A8o hand is interesting. Everyone says pushing is correct. That is not what I would have thought, but you guys know more than me. But here are my thoughts.

What is the range of hands that you would expect to call a push in that spot? I got to think that you declare, "Drat," the moment someone, except possibly the button, clicks the call button. Right? Anyone who calls most likely dominates you, no? So, if that is true, then does it really matter what cards you have?

Just remember, I'm still trying to learn. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DasLeben]

1. Easy push
2. Fold - Out of position, and the blinds aren't going to murder you.
3. This strikes me as pretty EV neutral against careful opponents. I haven't run the numbers, but I think it's pretty read dependent.
4. Push, but it's pretty close I think.
5. I think read dependent as well. Pretty close I'll bet. I probably fold though.

[DasLeben]

Alright, I ran the numbers, and the K4o and 54o hands are showing clear pushes even against slightly looser calling ranges. The one I was most surprised by was pushing K4o in that spot was pretty decently +EV. The rest I mentioned coincide with the math.

[Moonsugar]

You know there is important info missing from your post. Don't know how all these people are answering without bringing it up.

[ilya]

My take on the order of pushiness:

1. K4o
2. KTo
3. A8o

4. 54o (probably a fold)
5. KJo (definitely a fold)

[ QUOTE ]
I folded all of these. Thoughts? My image is good. All hands were folded to me. Still getting adjusted to the tighter calling standards at the 55s.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t3540)
Hero (t780)
Button (t535)
SB (t1775)
BB (t2335)
UTG (t1035)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t4560)
Hero (t930)
MP (t1815)
Button (t2135)
SB (t560)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t4560)
Hero (t1030)
Button (t1590)
SB (t2235)
BB (t585)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t4560)
Hero (t1030)
MP (t1590)
Button (t1650)
SB (t1170)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t4110)
Hero (t1960)
Button (t1340)
SB (t1550)
BB (t1040)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
You know there is important info missing from your post. Don't know how all these people are answering without bringing it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

If blinds were going up in <5 hands I would have mentioned it.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
The A8o hand is interesting. Everyone says pushing is correct. That is not what I would have thought, but you guys know more than me. But here are my thoughts.

What is the range of hands that you would expect to call a push in that spot? I got to think that you declare, "Drat," the moment someone, except possibly the button, clicks the call button. Right? Anyone who calls most likely dominates you, no? So, if that is true, then does it really matter what cards you have?

Just remember, I'm still trying to learn. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I have this "drat" feeling quite a lot, and then watch my opponent turn over a worse hand than mine. Also this brings us to another important point....



Let's assume our opponent's ranges are as follows:

66+,ATs+,AJo+, KQo+

Now let's say you take a "tricky" looking hand like 87s, as Vince Van Patten would say. Moving allin with that hand, as compared to A8o against such a range, actually yields slightly better results when called. However holding the ace means you will get called somewhere about 3-4% less frequently against this range, which actually means that although this hand fares about 1.5% worse than the 87s, it's actually more +EV to push with it, due to the reduced chance of being called (according to eastbay's program its .1 EV better to push with the A8o).

Of course these ranges aren't perfect, and once you start getting called with hands like KQ, A6s and so on, it becomes more important to have the hand like A8o

It's an important concept because I feel a lot of people would rather have a weaker hand (I've heard a lot of players state this) than the ace in fear of being dominated (to the AK+AQ calls), especially in this case where your raise is so large you can expect only dominating hands to call you, however I think that in these cases the opposite is usually true. The fact is that almost any weaker hands that you play are going to be dominated by this range quite often.

btw a hand like JTs seems to fare slightly better than A8o, but it depends on the situation, as the looser the calling range gets, the more important it is to have the ace. In the game scenario with the above tight range that I mentioned, JTs has a .1 EV edge over A8o, but once you start to change the calling ranges, A8o gains a huge edge over JTs.

Also A8o is +EV against every single calling range you can come up with. Once you start to make it really loose, it starts to gain EV. The least EV I could find a way for it to gain via eastbay's program was .3%

By the way my sit and go game has improved a lot recently and I think one key factor is due to the fact that I understand how clear a push A8o is in situations like this. I don't even think you can reasonably argue against it.