Pedro Martinez v Bob Gibson

[Bill Murphy]

I'm breaking this off from the original thread because I believe it illustrates a large philosophical debate in "alltime athlete" debates: Stats v Championship game[s] perfomance, or Clutch.

TO WIT: Which right-handed pitcher do you want starting Game 7 of the WSOB in a Nat'l League park *AFTER* having pitched 220+ innings in the regular season AND 3-5 prev. playoff games?

Hoot is #1 by a mile here, and you can easily name 9 others you'd take over Pedro; such as Hershiser, Schilling, Smoltz, Feller, Jack Morris, etc., along w/Clemens. Don't get me wrong, when Pedro's on he's likely the best[Lord knows what he'd do w/a 1968 mound], but rotisserie ain't the WSOB. Go to ESPN.com Classic's recent obit of Dave McNally and check out some of his clutch perf's.

I mean wouldn't you take Kevin McHale over Karl Malone? Hell, I'd even take Laimbeer...

And BTW, long as I got ya'll's attn /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif , Ray Lewis over LT??? C'mon! Now, IMO the 2001 Ravens are clearly the greatest single season D, and cap & free agency hurt Ray's chances of getting another ring, but LT completely altered how the game is played on both sides of the ball. And I give the silver to Ronnie Lott[as does Parcells, BTW] for the reasons listed above.

And, at one point in his career, Sugar Ray Robinson was 101-1-2, w/89 KO's, the loss coming at welterweight against a middleweight LaMotta. Nuf said.

[IrishHand]

TO WIT: Which right-handed pitcher do you want starting Game 7 of the WSOB in a Nat'l League park *AFTER* having pitched 220+ innings in the regular season AND 3-5 prev. playoff games?
Pedro Martinez
I love Hershiser to death (lifelong Dodgers fan), and I like most of the other guys you names, but they aren't in Pedro's league for raw pitching prowess. When he's on, the game is over in the top of the 1st so long as his team can manage to come up with a run or two. Jack Morris, for example, required more like 5 or 6.

I mean wouldn't you take Kevin McHale over Karl Malone? Hell, I'd even take Laimbeer...
Yes, I'd take McHale, but it's very close. Malone's generally performed great in the playoffs, as has Stockton. That's the prime reason I think that Sloan is a regular season coach.
I'd never take Laimbeer over Malone. I also wouldn't take Laimbeer over Webber, Duncan, Garnett, Horry or Wallace (the one with the 'fro, not the one with the pending court date).

[B-Man]

Bill,

I would take Kevin McHale at his peak (1986 and 1987 before he broke his foot) over any power forward who ever played, and I also think LT over Ray Lewis (and everyone else) is a no-brainer.

But, this sentence: Hoot is #1 by a mile here, and you can easily name 9 others you'd take over Pedro; such as Hershiser, Schilling, Smoltz, Feller, Jack Morris, etc., along w/Clemens is beyond ridiculous. CLEMENS? Are you kidding me? Prior to going to the Yankees, Clemens was a complete choke artist. On the Yankees, there is no pressure on him because he doesn't have to be a star (I knew he would win game 4 a few years ago when they had a 3-0 lead; there wasn't any pressure on him). This is the same pitcher who asked out/let himself be taken out (depending who you believe) of Game 6 of the 1986 World Serues (yes, the Bill Buckner game) with a 1-run lead. Do youn think Pedro would have EVER come out of that game with a championship on the line?

Why would you possibly imply Pedro is not clutch? Here are Pedro's career postseason numbers (4 starts):

3-0, 1.12 ERA, 24 IP, 11 hits, 6 walks, 31 strikeouts. Pedro has not allowed a run in his last 17 postseason innings! How much better could he possibly do? Keep in mind he pitched in 1999 with an injured shoulder (which forced him out of Game 1 after a few innings), and he came into the slugfest which was Game 5 in relief and pitched 6 no-hit innings to clinch the series. It's not his fault his teammates can't win the other games!

The other guys you mentioned were all good/great pitchers, but only Gibson is in Pedro's class, and even he isn't as great as Pedro. I simply have no idea how you could possibly suggest any of those guys are better (other than the fact they had better teammates, which isn't Pedro's fault).

[B-Man]

[IrishHand]

/forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Clarkmeister]

I happen to think McHale was one of the more overrated (not bad, not average...just overrated) top players in history. You'll have to define power forward also. Barkley lays over McHale and its not close IMO. If we add in todays PF's like Webber, Garnett, etc he falls even further down the list. I'd take Malone over McHale also.

[andyfox]

"I'd take Malone over McHale also"

By a mile. McHale was a very good player. Malone was a lot better than that.

[andyfox]

Baseball makes strange bedfellows. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[B-Man]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying McHale had a better career than Karl Malone or Charles Barkley; he didn't.

But Kevin McHale at his peak was an unstoppable force in the low post and a defensive force as well--he was All-NBA First Team 1987 (should have been in 1986, too) and All-NBA Defensive First Team 1986 thru 1988 (people forget how great a defensive player he was).

His peak didn't last as long as it should have because he broke his foot in March, 1987, continued to play on it, and was never the same afterward. But for a couple years he was the best power forward in history. Karl Malone and Barkley were great for much longer than McHale, and it amazes me that Malone is still playing. But neither of them played defense like McHale, and I would take McHale from the mid-80s over either of them (or any other power forward) at their best.

[patrick dicaprio]

i am sure i will hear it from those of you who saw gibson pitch. but he might be the most overrated pitcher ever, except for maybe ryan. i would be hard pressed to put him in the top 20 pitchers all time and if he were pitching today he might not even be top five. hell, dazzy vance was better than gibson, given the era they pitched in, at least to me.

no doubt in my mind, by the way, that i would rather have pedro.

Pat