what play do you make here?

[TStokes]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1030)
Button (t1925)
Hero (t1555)
BB (t3490)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Final Pot: t150


It was folded to me and I was wondering what play you guys make here?

[Patriarch]

I push.

[raptor517]

so you are in the sb eh.. god i dont think i have run into a situation like this in a while. AJs i def shove. A9s i may fold, maybe not if im feelin frisky, who knows.. A10s.. push? complete? fold? meh. no matter what you do here, its not going to change yer results very much in the long haul. holla

[Rosencrantz1]

Personally (and, don't get me wrong, this is a tough hand to play, I think) I think you're better off playing but not pushing. Why? Well, if you push you're only getting called by a seriously strong hand and may very well be an underdog.

But...

ATs 4-handed is a strong hand -- very possibly the best hand right now -- and I think you'd like some action on it.

I would say raise to about 3xBB (which is 2x pot here). If BB comes over the top, I would let it go unless you have a read on him as a pretty serious blind defender. If he folds, you pick up the blinds and no harm done. If he calls, you can see the flop and go from there.

[rickr]

BB is big stack. My read on him determines whether or not I complete or raise. If he has been doing that miniraise crap you see so often from Big stacks in this position, I just complete. Let him take control of the hand. You know the type I'm talking about. If the SB just completes he'll hit the raise 2x button automatic. Now That's the cheapest price I'm going to get to see this flop. He's improved my pot odds. I'm checking any flop. Any bet from him on a decent flop, and I push. Very hard for him to call.
If it's a solid player and I have good table image, standard raise hoping he'll dump and I get the blinds. Dump it to a serious reraise. Too early.

My 2 cents,
Rick

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally (and, don't get me wrong, this is a tough hand to play, I think) I think you're better off playing but not pushing. Why? Well, if you push you're only getting called by a seriously strong hand and may very well be an underdog.

But...

ATs 4-handed is a strong hand -- very possibly the best hand right now -- and I think you'd like some action on it.

I would say raise to about 3xBB (which is 2x pot here). If BB comes over the top, I would let it go unless you have a read on him as a pretty serious blind defender. If he folds, you pick up the blinds and no harm done. If he calls, you can see the flop and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do like the 3x raise. I think it adequatly communicates to big stack that you are 'committed' to the hand. I too think he's folding or reraising most hands (either way the hand is over IMO).

My concern - and question really, is what do you do on the missed flop? I'm down to T1200ish, and there is T600 in the pot. Understand that If I hit TP I push. But if I miss, now what? I'm thinking a 'probe' bet of say 1/2, trying to retain some of your chips will be read as just that by big stack. And a pot bet almost committs you.

I need help here myself. I'm a fan of the raise, but get pretty trapped post flop. Is this one of those occasions where you push any flop? Do you stick with the probe bet and check/fold turn-river with a call? Is limping better after all, allowing you to only put more chips in when you hit the flop? What do you think?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally (and, don't get me wrong, this is a tough hand to play, I think) I think you're better off playing but not pushing. Why? Well, if you push you're only getting called by a seriously strong hand and may very well be an underdog.

But...

ATs 4-handed is a strong hand -- very possibly the best hand right now -- and I think you'd like some action on it.

I would say raise to about 3xBB (which is 2x pot here). If BB comes over the top, I would let it go unless you have a read on him as a pretty serious blind defender. If he folds, you pick up the blinds and no harm done. If he calls, you can see the flop and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

no way...hate the 3bb raise here.

I might just call here.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally (and, don't get me wrong, this is a tough hand to play, I think) I think you're better off playing but not pushing. Why? Well, if you push you're only getting called by a seriously strong hand and may very well be an underdog.

But...

ATs 4-handed is a strong hand -- very possibly the best hand right now -- and I think you'd like some action on it.

I would say raise to about 3xBB (which is 2x pot here). If BB comes over the top, I would let it go unless you have a read on him as a pretty serious blind defender. If he folds, you pick up the blinds and no harm done. If he calls, you can see the flop and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do like the 3x raise. I think it adequatly communicates to big stack that you are 'committed' to the hand. I too think he's folding or reraising most hands (either way the hand is over IMO).

My concern - and question really, is what do you do on the missed flop? I'm down to T1200ish, and there is T600 in the pot. Understand that If I hit TP I push. But if I miss, now what? I'm thinking a 'probe' bet of say 1/2, trying to retain some of your chips will be read as just that by big stack. And a pot bet almost committs you.

I need help here myself. I'm a fan of the raise, but get pretty trapped post flop. Is this one of those occasions where you push any flop? Do you stick with the probe bet and check/fold turn-river with a call? Is limping better after all, allowing you to only put more chips in when you hit the flop? What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is the real problem with this hand (and, perhaps ultimately, the best argument FOR the push PF) -- how the @#$% do you play it on the flop if you don't hit two pair or better? If the BB calls the PF raise, you would pretty much HAVE to make a continuation bet on the flop regardless of how it fell and as you point out, you've got major stack issues then.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally (and, don't get me wrong, this is a tough hand to play, I think) I think you're better off playing but not pushing. Why? Well, if you push you're only getting called by a seriously strong hand and may very well be an underdog.

But...

ATs 4-handed is a strong hand -- very possibly the best hand right now -- and I think you'd like some action on it.

I would say raise to about 3xBB (which is 2x pot here). If BB comes over the top, I would let it go unless you have a read on him as a pretty serious blind defender. If he folds, you pick up the blinds and no harm done. If he calls, you can see the flop and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

no way...hate the 3bb raise here.

I might just call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call and he pops it, what do you do? Don't you think just calling cuts off some valuable info we'd get by raising?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally (and, don't get me wrong, this is a tough hand to play, I think) I think you're better off playing but not pushing. Why? Well, if you push you're only getting called by a seriously strong hand and may very well be an underdog.

But...

ATs 4-handed is a strong hand -- very possibly the best hand right now -- and I think you'd like some action on it.

I would say raise to about 3xBB (which is 2x pot here). If BB comes over the top, I would let it go unless you have a read on him as a pretty serious blind defender. If he folds, you pick up the blinds and no harm done. If he calls, you can see the flop and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

no way...hate the 3bb raise here.

I might just call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call and he pops it, what do you do? Don't you think just calling cuts off some valuable info we'd get by raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would rather risk t75 than t425 for that little nugget of info.

I would push this hand too before I'd raise it. I dont want to necessarily flex my muscles against the bigstack 4 handed here. I dont want to play this hand on the flop with ATs against a stack that can bust me w/o remorse here. pushing is not a bad move but raising here is a blatant leak IMO.

[bluefeet]

Thanks for the post and replies. I think I'm sold on the push or complete options (vs. 3x raise). The complete does give you an inexpensive opportunity to pick up a ton of chips. Folding to a reraise - losing 75 isn't the end of the world.

[TStokes]

Thanks for all the discussion normally up to this point I had been pushing here. This time however he ended up having queens and called in an instant. After losing I really was questioning what the right play was here. I think that im in between just calling or pushing. I really dont like putting in a 3x raise here so I guess it just comes down to what kind of read I have on BB here.