what would you have done?

[Bigbetkid]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (18 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (17.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

[davelin]

I'd raise the turn at least.

[lionhorse]

If not preflop, on the flop. You have top pair with a weak kicker and no redraws except to the runner runner straight, and there is a flush draw out there.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
If not preflop, on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blah, folding pre-flop would be a mistake IMO. Heck, I'm even considering a raise based on reads. The size of the pot is big enough to peel on the flop.

[Fantam]

I would have raised on the turn, before it got to the button. Then if button had reraised, I would probably have called down to the river.

The reason I would not have folded in this hand, is simply because the pot is very big and I think there would be a reasonable chance of your winning it. Or at least winning it often enough to make it worth calling down.

If the pot had been a lot smaller, say unraised PF, then I would probably have folded to a reraise on the turn.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
when should i have let this go?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not before you've raised the turn.

[Twitch1977]

I agree with 21:1 or whatever the pot odds were at that point it would be ridiculous to fold. Even if it gets raised behind you you're still going to be better then 10:1.

And just calling the turn gets you no where, you have no idea if your hand is best or just second best. You need to either reraise or fold. I think I'd be inclined to fold, but perhaps the thread's Subject has biased me.

T

[bozlax]

Unfortunately, your subject gives away the results to a degree /images/graemlins/frown.gif. But, trying not to consider that you didn't win the hand...

For me, at the PP tables recently, MP3 is too early to play any sooted ace. I think it's marginal, but it's one of the hands I'm not trying to make something out of any more. I certainly let it go once BB raises with 4 limpers and a completer and the first 2 limpers stay. And, if I've somehow slipped on a cyber-banana peel twice and landed on the call button I use both hands to hit FOLD once SB limp-3-bets and nobody's bailing out. There are some big pairs out there or stronger draws, the only flop I'm going to feel good about is K/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif, and if any of those pairs on the turn or river I'm not going to be comfortable.

[AmarilloJim1]

I would have let hand go after the flop. Hitting top pair with a weak kicker is pretty much a missed flop.

[Twitch1977]

As davelin pointed out this pot is huge! You can't fold for one bet getting 21:1 pot odds! You have top pair!!!!!1!!

T

[Bigbetkid]

so on the subject of suited aces, mp3 is too early to limp?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
so on the subject of suited aces, mp3 is too early to limp?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm limping this hand UTG with decent table selection.

[AmarilloJim1]

It doesn't matter how big the pot odds are...the best flop you could hope for with this hand is at least a four flush, or 3 fives with an ace kicker. He was correct in calling the raises; however, after the flop, he had no chance to win, therefore, I believe a fold was in order...minimize your loseses. Playing this hand further is only maximizing them...just the way I think.

- Jim

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how big the pot odds are...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, I hate this statement. There's certainly a chance Hero can win with a pair of Aces or by pairing his kicker.

[Twitch1977]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how big the pot odds are...the best flop you could hope for with this hand is at least a four flush, or 3 fives with an ace kicker. He was correct in calling the raises; however, after the flop, he had no chance to win, therefore, I believe a fold was in order...minimize your loseses. Playing this hand further is only maximizing them...just the way I think.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

He has top pair, he might have the best hand, if not another ace or 5 could give him the best hand. Even if he can only manage 3 outs here a call is proper given the pot odds. Not calling for one bet in a pot this big is a mistake. He definetely has the 5% pot equity he needs to make this call.

T

PS: Did I mention he has top pair!! :P

[Twitch1977]

Below is a post made by Ed Miller way back when before he was published, I don't have a link to the original post, I just copied into a text file because it was gold. I think it fits here perfectly.

--Post--

I have a secret. I know why most of you aren't crushing these Microlimit games. It isn't because you guys aren't smart, because you are. It isn't because you don't put the effort in to study, because you do. It isn't because your opponents play well, because they don't.

It's because you fold too damn much.

Most low-limit books contain advice that looks like this:

"Fit or fold."
"If you don't have the best hand or the best draw, fold."
"If you have bottom or middle pair, fold."
"If you have a pocket pair and don't hit your set on the flop, fold."
"If you have top pair, but don't like your kicker, fold."
"If you have a straight draw, but there are two of a suit on board, fold."
"If you have a flush draw, but the board is paired, fold."

This advice is terrible. In fact, I can prove that this advice is terrible right now. You are playing 1-2, and FishyPoker.com has decided to run a promotion. They are going to add $10 million to this one pot. How should you play? Well, however you play, you sure as hell shouldn't fold. Any dumbass who folds in a $10 million pot for a $2 bet is a moron.

Now you may say, "well, this is an extreme case," and it is. But the problem with the advice is that it IGNORES THE SIZE OF THE POT, which happens to be the single most important factor in any decision you make at the poker table. Every time you make any decision... whether it be betting or check-raising the flop or calling on the river, you need to be saying to yourself, "how big is the pot?" If you aren't, then you are playing poor poker.

In the past few weeks, I have seen approximately two zillion posts from players that folded top pair or an overpair in a big pot for just one bet. This is on the flop, on the turn, and on the river.

"I thought someone had to have me beat."
"I didn't like my kicker."
"I didn't want to be dominated."
"With all those players in, someone had to have a flush draw."

When the pot is big (and big essentially means as little as that there was a preflop raise) you need to focus on winning the pot. Big pots are the time to play aggressively and maximize your chance to win, not to save bets. Folding is saving bets. You should NOT be looking to fold in big pots... you should be constantly thinking about how you are going to win it, even if you don't have the best hand sometimes.

There was a post just this morning where someone limped in with A3s on the button after two limpers. The big blind raise behind and everyone called. The flop was AQ2, and the action went BB bet, one limper called, and it was your action. You have top frickin pair in a big (i.e. raised) pot, and it is one bet to you. The BB's bet shows no more strength than what he showed when he raised before the flop. He could easily have KQ or TT or 76s. The limper called... that means he has.. well, two cards. You are getting 11-1 on a call, and did I mention that you have top frickin pair?

And yet half (or more) of the advice told him to fold. TERRIBLE! Horrible, terrible, wretched poker advice. The pot is big, you have a good hand, no one has shown any real strength, and you are gonna bail? Absurd. Yes, sometimes the raiser will have AQ and you'll lose a couple of bets. But the pot is already way bigger than a "couple of bets." And when you have the raiser beaten, he's gonna be the one losing a couple of bets to you when he pays YOU off with his KK or whatever.

WHEN THE POT IS BIG DO NOT FOLD DECENT HANDS FOR ONE BET! Just stop doing it.

You know those guys that play "fearless" poker and seem to win? When the pot is big, it is time to play fearless. Throw in that extra bet or raise. If you crash and burn, so be it. That is winning poker, though. If you don't have the stomach for it, take up tiddle-e-winks.

The time to save bets is when the pot is small. Make your prudent folds in the four-ways for one bet pots.

For the love of god, think about this and reevaluate your game, guys. If I folded as much as you guys do, I'd be flat broke right now.

Ok. Every one of you now officially owes me a beer next time you come to Vegas. Don't think I'm not gonna collect, either...

-- End Post --

[McGahee]

"The limper called... that means he has.. well, two cards."

One of my all-time favorite lines.

[bozlax]

For me, at the current "typical" PP table, sooted aces aren't working out well from EP and MP. If I find that miracle table with 6 or 7 players around 40 VPIP and sub-1 PFR over 100 hands, then I'd play it from just about anywhere.

[AmarilloJim1]

Thanks for the reply and insight...I definately will ponder this thread.

An interesting thing happended to me last night though...I was in a big pot with pocket aces...my opponent had 7 3 suited, he flopped a seven and rivered me with a 3 to make two pair. Just because it was a big pot and he won, I'm not going to start cold calling 7 3 suited and playing to the river because the pot is big...- Jim

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because it was a big pot and he won, I'm not going to start cold calling 7 3 suited and playing to the river because the pot is big...- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is saying you should.