$100+9 Trip Queens [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Jman28

05-18-2005, 03:24 AM

I never know how to play these hands from the blinds. Comments on all streets are welcome, though I'm especially concerned with the river.

I bet small to induce a bluff. This play has worked well for me in the past. After he raised, my first instinct was to reraise.

As I thought about it, I figured he either had a better queen, which was unlikely, or was bluffing. I figure he folds the bluffs and calls the Qs against my reraise, so I just call.

My only note on him is that he limped 75o in lvl 1.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t975)
UTG+1 (t1730)
MP1 (t750)
MP2 (t1000)
CO (t2170)
Button (t975)
Hero (t975)
BB (t1425)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, 4 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t42.50) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB folds, UTG+1 checks.

Turn: (t42.50) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t40, UTG+1 raises to t80, Hero calls t40.

River: (t202.50) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t60, UTG+1 raises to t225, Hero calls t165.

Final Pot: t652.50

Jman28

05-18-2005, 06:18 PM

Any ideas y'all?

J-Lo

05-18-2005, 06:25 PM

I think a bigger blocker bet of 85-90 on the river gives you a clearer fold if raised. However, if u were hoping to get raised by a worse hand, then the T60 is fine <-- Don't know if this will happen often. Playing hands from the blinds is THE hardest thing to do for me, because of position+kickers. BTW i play the $55's and i try and avoid u, although i have ended up at your table a couple times. I'm addicted777

In conclusion, I hate calling the river.

The Yugoslavian

05-18-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

In conclusion, I hate calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?!

I think Jman played this well...giving a worse hand the option of calling or raising his weak t60 river bet.

I don't think there is any amount villian could bet/raise on the river that I wouldn't call here.

Yugoslav

J-Lo

05-18-2005, 06:42 PM

wouldn't a check to enduce a bluff on river work better and risk less chips. I think u get outkicked here or get shown a FH far more often than u have the best hand-- or are the 109's full of LAGs?

Jman28

05-18-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]

wouldn't a check to enduce a bluff on river work better and risk less chips. I think u get outkicked here or get shown a FH far more often than u have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought that a boat was unlikely. A set of 5s should bet that flop strong and AA or QQ should've raised preflop. Even QQQ should bet the flop.

Edit: I also find that the small bet works better than a check to induce a bluff. It requires them to make a bigger bet too. Maybe just my experience though.

[ QUOTE ]
or are the 109's full of LAGs?

[/ QUOTE ]

He did limp 75o earlier.

bluesbassman

05-18-2005, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I never know how to play these hands from the blinds. Comments on all streets are welcome, though I'm especially concerned with the river.

I bet small to induce a bluff. This play has worked well for me in the past. After he raised, my first instinct was to reraise.

As I thought about it, I figured he either had a better queen, which was unlikely, or was bluffing. I figure he folds the bluffs and calls the Qs against my reraise, so I just call.

My only note on him is that he limped 75o in lvl 1.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t975)
UTG+1 (t1730)
MP1 (t750)
MP2 (t1000)
CO (t2170)
Button (t975)
Hero (t975)
BB (t1425)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, 4 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t42.50) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB folds, UTG+1 checks.

Turn: (t42.50) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t40, UTG+1 raises to t80, Hero calls t40.

River: (t202.50) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t60, UTG+1 raises to t225, Hero calls t165.

Final Pot: t652.50

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to reply not because you should listen to me (I stink), but so that others may critique my line.

I like how you played it up to the turn. If villain has a better Q, then so be it. I put him on one a flush draw, A-x, or mid pair. Thus, I'd re-raise his min-raise or go all-in on the turn.

Jman28

05-18-2005, 06:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm going to reply not because you should listen to me (I stink), but so that others may critique my line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any genuine replies are appreciated. Keep posting your thoughts. It's a great way to learn.

[ QUOTE ]

I like how you played it up to the turn. If villain has a better Q or set of eights, then so be it. I put him on one of two flush draws, A-x, or mid pair. Thus, I'd re-raise his min-raise or go all-in on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by one of two flush draws? And he can't have a set of 8s. I assume you meant 5s.

If I understand correctly, I think you have a good range for him. A reraise is definitely not out of the question and may have been a better play here, but it's too early to go all in. You'd be risking ~900 chips to win 160.

The Yugoslavian

05-18-2005, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't a check to enduce a bluff on river work better and risk less chips. I think u get outkicked here or get shown a FH far more often than u have the best hand-- or are the 109's full of LAGs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the weak bet will do more for getting value from weaker hands than just checking. I'm not exactly sure that I can explain why I think this in any helpful way.

It just seems to me that villian would be more likely to raise his ace to such a weak bet than to bet it to a check (after hero leads and calls the turn)...

Yugoslav

Nick M

05-18-2005, 07:01 PM

you bet 40 on the turn he raises to 80 I make it 250 and call his all in...or if he just calls and I move in on the river provided it's not a club. I guess if it's the 5 or 8 of clubs I move in too.

Jman28

05-18-2005, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you bet 40 on the turn he raises to 80 I make it 250 and call his all in...or if he just calls and I move in on the river provided it's not a club. I guess if it's the 5 or 8 of clubs I move in too.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is another line I considered.

My problem with it is putting him on a hand. What hand doesn't bet that flop, and then min raises that turn?

To be honest I was confused, but I read him as weak. I don't really have a reason for it. I just did.

Because of that, I played as weak as I could to try and induce bluffs, figuring he wouldn't pay me off at all if I raised.

Nick M

05-18-2005, 07:09 PM

I agree he seems weak with this mini raise on the turn. But I still raise though he might have a flush draw. I truly hate to play anything strong slow. I don't like second guessing and outplaying myself.

Ogre

05-18-2005, 10:06 PM

I can see a bad player (limps with 57o) paying you off a lot more when he had a pair of aces. That is my only problem with how you played it.

Jman28

05-18-2005, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can see a bad player (limps with 57o) paying you off a lot more when he had a pair of aces. That is my only problem with how you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. Where would you differ from my line? Re-raise the turn?

Moonsugar

05-18-2005, 10:59 PM

check/call or check/raise the river depending on read of player and randomizer

durron597

05-18-2005, 11:07 PM

I almost want to say fold preflop. 5:1 isn't good enough for Q8o in the SB (no straight or flush possibilities and you are out of position), but then I realized that this is party with 10/15 blinds and you are getting 8:1. So it's close IMO, but it's really such a win a small pot/lose a big pot hand and you are out of position. If multitabling I fold anyway so I don't have to worry about this table for a bit.

Since you called, I like your play on the remaining streets. I definitely prefer bet/call to bet/raise on the river, but I'm not certain with the bet amount (somewhere in the range 60-90), or what I think about check-call (no I don't like check-raise for the reasons you decided against bet-raise).

uphigh_downlow

05-18-2005, 11:47 PM

I think it was an excelent play, if you were fairly positive that you ha him. A slightly higher river bet might have made decisions easier.

The only suggestion I have about this play is that given the lack of read on this guys tendencies, I might check/call the river. It wont work everytime, but if I show weakness, he is unlikely to bet big, if he wants a payoff, thereby gaining some information by checking.

The reason is this.

If he has a marginal hand that I beat, he calls and I gain 60.
If he missed or is in terrible shape, he can just fold for 60. (Thats a donation bet /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)
Or he can attempt a bluff at this stage, since you have kinda played this hand strong-weak.
Or try and maximize his profits with a raise

The problem with your play is that you gave some indication of strenght by betting into him again, but its also an indication of weakness. You have done well to keep him confused, but is this the right kind of deception that you wanted to employ. I suspect not. Because you havent gained any extra information yourself.

In addition he has better position. He has the distinct advantage here. More information, more options. It would be a good idea to respect his superior position and play accordingly.

He can exploit it both ways: By making you pay or by bluffing into you.

Doest the EV you gained by him calling the 60 make up for the EV lost by folding to a bluff or paying a better kicker off.

I cant answer it. But probably you with the better understanding of the exact picture can.
That was my 2 cents

HoldingFolding

05-19-2005, 12:02 AM

[Caveat: I'm a $20+2 player]

First: I thought the BB's post flop fold was interesting, is that common in the 109s?

Second and off topic: where are those half chips from?

Third (and this may be very level related): Your opponent has to believe that there is a strong possibility that you have a Q and yet he continues to reraise, his final bet is also nicely balanced, the sort of size you just have to call if you've got trips. I'd believe you are well beaten - 55 or Q better kicker, though I'm not sure I'd have the gumption to lay it down.

gumpzilla

05-19-2005, 12:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you. Where would you differ from my line? Re-raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
As I thought about it, I figured he either had a better queen, which was unlikely, or was bluffing. I figure he folds the bluffs and calls the Qs against my reraise, so I just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting the two together, I think you can consider raising the river anticipating a call from an A. If you don't think that he'll call with an A, then I think your original reasoning is good. Otherwise I don't really see where you can extract more, since betting any more on the river seems more likely to keep him from raising instead, and a turn reraise seems very, very likely to fold all but the hands that you beat.

freemoney

05-19-2005, 02:11 AM

you played the hand fine theres no way you fold that river, against a real bad opponent here i like doing somethin like open pushing or c/r all in the bad ones call with an ace here.

raptor517

05-19-2005, 05:49 AM

Jman, let me start by saying this is a rather unusual line to take. i like the play of the hand in general, even on the river, however there is another way to look at the hand.

flop check: pretty much auto.

turn lead out: i like this.

reaction to the min raise: call. definitely ok.

now the fun part, the river: ok, so you lead out with a VERY weak bet, saying, RAISE ME. im not sure if i like this. you bet less than a third of the pot. if you had a HUGE hand, like AQ, this bet is great, as you can get him to raise you, and you can shove. however, your hand isnt quite strong enough to WANT a raise here. facing the min raise on the turn, which can mean anything really.. i would probably check call the river. actually, i would check call the river almost 100% of the time. however, i dont fault your play here, as it has its merits. i DO recommend you attempt this with a stronger hand next time. holla