Interesting KJo hand level 3 $109

[TT_fold]

Villain doubled up on first hand by flopping two pair with QJo in an unraised pot. He overbet all-in on the turn after min-raising the flop on the QJo hand.

Should I have bet ~400 on the turn here and folded to a check-raise? I hate how this hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2380)
SB (t998)
BB (t2040)
UTG (t1432)
MP (t1095)
Hero (t2055)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t325) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, BB calls t200.

Turn: (t725) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t725) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t1690 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t2415

[Big Limpin']

yes bet the turn and take your free street as the river if you dont improve.

[bluefeet]

for me, i fold PF.

...with that flop, i'm thinking KJ has to be good. being out of position, i would bet a little more than pot (1.5x?) - not giving him anything close to odds if he's drawing.

considering the trouble with the free river card - and despite not being able to put him on a hand, i fold (as punishment for calling PF)

[Eevee]

It seems to me that Villain either had J9 or JT. Or he read by the check on the turn that ur AX missed. He could have had QJ AJ or KJ and bet after ur sign of weakness. I woudnt check that turn unless I knew my J was good and since you dont know that, you need to bet the turn to see where u are. Bet ~300-400 and fold to a raise IMO.

-EV

Current Music: G-Unit - Stunt 101

[Nick M]

slam the turn, and check behind if he calls and checks the river. I think you got him though. If he has J10 than he gets paid.

[TT_fold]

[ QUOTE ]

for me, i fold PF.

...with that flop, i'm thinking KJ has to be good. being out of position, i would bet a little more than pot (1.5x?) - not giving him anything close to odds if he's drawing.

considering the trouble with the free river card - and despite not being able to put him on a hand, i fold (as punishment for calling PF)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst advice I have ever seen posted on 2+2.

I think raising KJo preflop when folded to in the cutoff is pretty standard, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there.

As for the rest of the post, I am not out of position at all, and there are no draws on the board. My typical continuation bet is 1/2-2/3 pot; betting 1.5x pot on a regular basis will cost me more when I get check-raised, and I'll be less likely to get called when I hit a good flop.

To sum things up, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

[TT_fold]

[ QUOTE ]
yes bet the turn and take your free street as the river if you dont improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's all I need to hear... thanks for talking some sense into me. I took a strange line here.

[bluefeet]

My apologies TT, I took to my reply post the notion you were leading out the whole time. I stand corrected...and wrong as hell. The 'draw' I was referring too, was simply my mistaken assumption that a hand was acting after you, perhaps having missed the flop, wanting to see the turn.

I'd still prefer a pot bet with TP2K. And yes, drop the hammer on the turn.

Sorry again!
/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

depending on the table I might fold this pf too beacuse:
1. KJ sucks, especially against anything that is calling a raise
2. every raise at this point is reducing your FE once the blinds get worth stealing

If I'm feeling bored I might raise pf here like you did though.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
depending on the table I might fold this pf too beacuse:
1. KJ sucks, especially against anything that is calling a raise
2. every raise at this point is reducing your FE once the blinds get worth stealing


[/ QUOTE ]

holy bad advice.

[Newt_Buggs]

care to explain why?

[Nick B.]

yea, KJ is a monster in the CO 5 handed. You are also implying that raising with KJo in the CO 5 handed is a -ev move since you say that you are losing chips that could be useful for fold equity. Also this is a $109 sng, where stealing the blind is common.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
KJ is a monster in the CO 5 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]
against 3 random hands, you will run into KJs,KQ,A2+,22+ 52.6% of the time. KJ is definitly not a monster here

[ QUOTE ]
this is a $109 sng, where stealing the blind is common

[/ QUOTE ]
I was implying that raising here is probably +chip EV, but could be -$EV for the tournament. Your above statement is exactly why this is true. blind stealing is very effective, and everyone is aware of that. However, the profitability of steals drops significantly when people can recognize a steal. By raising this hand from the CO, you are beginning to make your opponents aware that you are aggressive. If 15 hands later when the blinds are 100/200 and you push from the CO w 22, the BB is more likely to remember you raising his blind before and be more inclined to call with a hand like 77/A9 which is very -EV for you.

I'm not advocating a fold necessarily, although many on this board will. I'm simply showing that there are valid reasons for folding this under the right table conditions.

[curtains]

I raise here with KJo, but I agree it's obviously not a monster. The idea of not raising to effect your later is hogwash, and it amazes me that so many people continue to act as though a raise early in the tournament will suddenly have everyone calling your allins later in the event.

[James282]

You can justify almost anything under the guise of "table conditions." The average 109 SnG has people who are tight enough to fold to the raise in this spot, but people who aren't going to remember every single time you raised their blind. And even if they did, it's highly unlikely that they would properly adjust. You have a +EV situation, you take it. Don't think yourself out of great spots to gather chips.
-James

[citanul]

what in the blue hell are you doing in this forum?

you, nick, and curtains have already handled all the actual stuff that needs to be said here, so i'll just leave my commentary to "wtf are you doing here?"

citanul

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]

it amazes me that so many people continue to act as though a raise early in the tournament will suddenly have everyone calling your allins later in the event.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you position raise every hand when it is folded to you in the CO or later will people notice and call with a wider range? Of course they will. What if you raise half of the time? yup, their range is still going to increase. Now what do you do when someone who hasn't played a hand the whole tournament sudenly raises for the first time? You quickly muck everything but a monster. There is no line when people will suddenly go from respecting you to calling with a wide range of hands. If raising every hand from position increases your opponents calling range, then every hand that you are raising is contributing to this effect. Of course raising one hand is going to have an imperceptible effect but its still there.

of course, if you get delt AA next hand this effect is a good thing, but for obvious reasons this is not as influential

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
what in the blue hell are you doing in this forum?

you, nick, and curtains have already handled all the actual stuff that needs to be said here, so i'll just leave my commentary to "wtf are you doing here?"

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone told me this was the forum with the worst strategy advice in twoplustwo. I was thinking, NO WAY! So I decided to check it out. Sadly, he was correct.
-James

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

it amazes me that so many people continue to act as though a raise early in the tournament will suddenly have everyone calling your allins later in the event.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you position raise every hand when it is folded to you in the CO or later will people notice and call with a wider range? Of course they will. What if you raise half of the time? yup, their range is still going to increase. Now what do you do when someone who hasn't played a hand the whole tournament sudenly raises for the first time? You quickly muck everything but a monster. There is no line when people will suddenly go from respecting you to calling with a wide range of hands. If raising every hand from position increases your opponents calling range, then every hand that you are raising is contributing to this effect. Of course raising one hand is going to have an imperceptible effect but its still there.

of course, if you get delt AA next hand this effect is a good thing, but for obvious reasons this is not as influential

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did anyone suggest raising all the time, or half of the time? If you made KJo the basement of hands that you raised with, you'd still be under 15 percent. I don't like throwing around the terms weak-tight and misguided, but sometimes you need to call a spade a spade.
-James

[curtains]

I'm sorry I really don't beleive that someone is going to decide to call you later on in a tournament with a weaker hand, because they noticed you stole the blinds 2 times in the 25-50 and 50-100 round. People use this abstract reasoning as an excuse to play tight so often on this forum in absurd situations.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what in the blue hell are you doing in this forum?

you, nick, and curtains have already handled all the actual stuff that needs to be said here, so i'll just leave my commentary to "wtf are you doing here?"

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone told me this was the forum with the worst strategy advice in twoplustwo. I was thinking, NO WAY! So I decided to check it out. Sadly, he was correct.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

well i'm sorry that you came to agree with that person.

i honestly think that some of the best strategy discussions happen here, but they are often buried in huge heaping piles of trash.

sadly, the same is sort of how i feel about mid/high stakes (nl or limit) and the shorthanded forum.

i don't know if you have any interest in learning sngs or discussing them, but if you stick around a while, maybe we'll change your mind or something.

citanul

[curtains]

I should get out to the other forums more, whenever someone new comes to this forum and everyone freaks out, I never have any idea who they are.

[citanul]

also, james, you haven't been around much, but you should know that amongst the better things that have occured in the sng strategy discussions lately are various threads detailing that particularly late in the game, no matter what kind of range you put your opponent on, you shouldn't be opening up your calling standards basically at all. (nice long sentence there, but i think it makes sense.) when it comes down to it basically the whole reason people came up with for callign at all late in game has nothing to do with what you think that a person might be pushing with at that moment, but instead only about inter-game image plays and spite calls, basically knowingly giving up some ev and into some variance in order to get yourself some easier bubble play in future games with thinking opponents.

additionally, if i felt that raising a couple hands early in the tournament made it even 2% more likely that i was going to get called when i push later in the game, i would raise 0% of hands early in the game.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]

I should get out to the other forums more, whenever someone new comes to this forum and everyone freaks out, I never have any idea who they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, yeah, i do a fair amount of reading of the other forums. mostly that time, as most time spent reading poker forums, is wasted. but sometimes there's something worthwhile.

citanul

[Newt_Buggs]

I was merely trying to explain that if raising frequently makes your opponents play looser against you, then every individual raise must be making your opponents a little bit looser (although there is now way that this is a linear effect where every raise has an equal effect). Yes, many times your raise will go completely unoticed, but what if the BB makes a tough decision and lays down a decent hand here? He will certainly remember it and may be slightly more inclined to call a futures steal. If you think that my logic is flawed please help me figure out where I have made a mistake.

btw, I raise KJ often here too, but there are some cases against a manical BB where I would rather lay this down than commit 400 chips to a raise and continuation bet.

[jeffraider]

I wonder if the preflop play isn't just a matter of being level-specific. In the $22s I fold preflop because the typical BB will call with a lot of hands and KJo is fairly weak, and I honestly don't care about getting the t75 when I'm sitting on 2000 chips. Of course, one of the reasons I don't care is because I know that by playing tight here I'm giving my weak opponents more chances to knock each other out and saving my chips for where my opponents REALLY play poorly, levels 4-6. I think against better players I would want to play it for a raise here because it is a decent hand in position against opponents who are not going to do me the favour of going nuts anytime soon.

[James282]

Hey Citanul - I don't doubt that you guys have some great strategy discussions. I didn't mean to make a broad, sweeping generalization about a whole forum, and for that I apologize for any implied offense. I just think that a lot of the awful advice goes unpoliced and really detracts from the good advice. Look at that thread where the guy has 88 UTG with 6 left. Some of the advice is non-debatably embarassing, but it goes unaddressed. You clearly understand what you are talking about and I wouldn't even doubt that you are a better SnG player than I am, but that doesn't mean that the overall quality of advice is very good. On the other hand, I should read a little more before I render a judgment, which I will, but I suppose I just expected that this forum would have a feel like the mid-high forum where the top players do a bit of moderation when plainly bad or misleading advice is put forth.
-James

[curtains]

I can't find the 88 hand? I like to police, but sometimes I feel like I'm being mean!!!

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Citanul - I don't doubt that you guys have some great strategy discussions. I didn't mean to make a broad, sweeping generalization about a whole forum, and for that I apologize for any implied offense. I just think that a lot of the awful advice goes unpoliced and really detracts from the good advice. Look at that thread where the guy has 88 UTG with 6 left. Some of the advice is non-debatably embarassing, but it goes unaddressed. You clearly understand what you are talking about and I wouldn't even doubt that you are a better SnG player than I am, but that doesn't mean that the overall quality of advice is very good. On the other hand, I should read a little more before I render a judgment, which I will, but I suppose I just expected that this forum would have a feel like the mid-high forum where the top players do a bit of moderation when plainly bad or misleading advice is put forth.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]


James, stick around this forum, we need more people who can tell the difference between good and bad advice and aren't afraid to speak up!