Extracting the most money out of a monster [Archive]

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mlagoo

05-17-2005, 05:22 PM

Recent Hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1000)
Button (t1000)
SB (t1000)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, Hero calls t15, 5 folds, SB raises to t47.5, 1 fold, Hero calls t35.

Flop: (t112.50) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t50, Hero calls t50.

Turn: (t212.50) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t50, Hero raises to t100, SB calls t50.

River: (t412.50) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets t60, Hero raises to t220, SB folds.

Final Pot: t692.50

Alright, so I think I misplayed it on every street. Do I raise on the flop, hoping he'll reraise, and just call? Then on the turn, should I raise something more significant then 50 more chips, because he may be drawing and he will call? And what's an amount he may call on the river?

As far as what I put him on -- he was very LAG, and could easily have held T9s, and just as easily have held K2o.

Prime Time

05-17-2005, 05:42 PM

I would not raise until the turn.
You scare him w/ the turn raise and end up losing him for the river bet.

gumpzilla

05-17-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

As far as what I put him on -- he was very LAG, and could easily have held T9s, and just as easily have held K2o.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean this wasn't the first hand of the tournament, with all of the stack sizes exactly equal?

His turn bet is really weak. I don't know how much more you're going to get out of this guy. On the other hand, with quads you're fine to give him another card to try and catch up. You need to him to hit something to really get paid well, though. In general calling the turn will probably give you a little more room on the river, but I don't think in this particular case it would have made much difference.

TheDrone

05-17-2005, 07:06 PM

Your image plays a key role in how many chips you can make from monster hands. Generally the more LAG your image, the more people will be willing to donate their chips when you do hit big because they are skeptical about the strength of your hand.

Since it looks like this is the first hand, there are no reads or table image to exploit yet. Therefore I go to my default play, which is to start building the pot on the flop with a raise. If SB is taking a stab with nothing, then you are not likely to get any more chips from him anyway. Many lesser hands will call a small raise though, including top pair, overpair, AT+ because it looks like you are trying to make a play on a ragged flop with overcards or a small pair. Building the pot now gives you a better shot at getting additional chips on the turn, especially if SB improves. When the turn 3 comes you can feign weakness by checking through and give SB a chance to bluff the river (or improve).

The way you played it, the turn raise was a mistake. When you are already ahead and the turn card obviously does not improve your opponent's hand, you do not want to take the betting impetus away with a raise unless he is already pot committed.

mlagoo

05-18-2005, 12:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As far as what I put him on -- he was very LAG, and could easily have held T9s, and just as easily have held K2o.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean this wasn't the first hand of the tournament, with all of the stack sizes exactly equal?

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually (luckily, this happens like two or three times in each tourney I'm in) had about 40 hands with him in a prior tourney. His VP$IP was something like 40%, with his PFR% at like 24. So yeah. Little loose.

I think you guys are right -- call the turn, with the intentions of making a small bet on the river. I think at the end of the day, I wasn't going to get too much more out of this pot.

On the other hand, I employed my "new strategy" of trying to push harder early and take my small edges in order to accumulate chips, and I had a really fun, and potentially profitable, if not for a bad beat, tourney. One hand in particular I was pleased with: I limped with 88 from MP, and was raised significantly by someone whose PFR was at 13%. I was a bit shortstacked at this point, and I thought this was a good spot, so I went all-in. Sure enough, he calls with A6s, doesn't improve, and I double through him.

A couple more aggressive pushes later (pushes that I wouldn't have made yesterday - Pushing top pair for all my chips for a big pot against a passive opponent comes to mind), and I'm in really strong chip position. Ultimately, I ended up busting because my QQ ran into the table chip leader's AJ, and he made a pretty iffy call and caught an ace on the flop.

But all in all, it was really fun, I felt like I played great, and hey, had I held up in one more favorable position, I would have been like ~9th in chips in the tourney, and sitting pretty.

barycentric

05-18-2005, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Recent Hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1000)
Button (t1000)
SB (t1000)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, Hero calls t15, 5 folds, SB raises to t47.5, 1 fold, Hero calls t35.

Flop: (t112.50) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t50, Hero calls t50.

Turn: (t212.50) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t50, Hero raises to t100, SB calls t50.

River: (t412.50) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets t60, Hero raises to t220, SB folds.

Final Pot: t692.50

Alright, so I think I misplayed it on every street. Do I raise on the flop, hoping he'll reraise, and just call? Then on the turn, should I raise something more significant then 50 more chips, because he may be drawing and he will call? And what's an amount he may call on the river?

As far as what I put him on -- he was very LAG, and could easily have held T9s, and just as easily have held K2o.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL I didn't know one could raise to decimal values in tourneys.

ekky

05-18-2005, 01:20 AM

I like the turn mini bet. If the guy is drawing.... you get some more chips from him before he hits/misses... and more importantly.. the pot is larger, in case he hits his draw.

If he then hits his draw on the river, he will pay off a bigger re-raise or even get all his money in the middle... because the pot is bigger than if you just flat called the turn.

Once people make calls on the turn with draws (assuming he was drawing).. if they hit on the river they are unlikely to get off the hand no matter what you bet.

Harv72b

05-18-2005, 01:35 AM

First hand of the tourney & you added about 250 chips to your stack...that's a very good take that early on.

Personally, I like the way you played every street (though I'm no tournament/NL expert). The miniraise on the turn netted some extra chips, and when the A shows on the river you might as well throw in a decent-sized raise hoping the he just hit his hand. Maybe just a tad less than you raised would've been better...something like raising to 150 into the t480ish pot.

It really is tough to extract a lot of value from quads. You pretty much have to hope that your opponent is either incredibly bad or hits a set (or picks the wrong hand to bluff at you).

PattyMcFatty

05-18-2005, 02:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
and when the A shows on the river you might as well throw in a decent-sized raise hoping the he just hit his hand. Maybe just a tad less than you raised would've been better...something like raising to 150 into the t480ish pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

His raise was fine- as was stated previously, when LAG's, or most players in general for that matter, make their hand, they normally are not capable of getting away from it when facing a moderate raise. LAG's play was clearly the standard "scare card stab". As for how the hand was played, I like a flop raise. In this situation, a minimum raise or even triple works well for a couple of reasons: Because he is a LAG, if drawing, or already with a made hand, you will likely get called in this spot. Additionaly, with the texture of this board, this raise disguises your hand. Finally, if he calls your triple on the flop, he is much more commited if you check turn and will possibly attempt a desperation river bluff.