ATo in the SB...a very tough turn fold. [Archive]

View Full Version : ATo in the SB...a very tough turn fold.

Entity

05-17-2005, 02:37 PM

Reads: CO seems ok, though overaggressive. Had a weird hand against him earlier where he raised, I 3-bet 88 OTB, and he capped. Flop came 825 and he bet, I raised, he called. Turn was an A and he bet-folded.

Button is a complete preflop calling station who will call with any piece of the board postflop.

BB has been very solid so far, and I think he may be a decent-playing TAG.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, CO caps, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, CO raises, Hero folds...

Scotch78

05-17-2005, 02:45 PM

Once the button folds, I'd check-raise this flop almost every time. You're going to be ahead of the BB most of the time, and given your read, a check-raise should tell you pretty quickly where you stand in relation to the CO. That said, I don't see what's so tough about folding this turn.

Scott

TMFS9

05-17-2005, 02:48 PM

I think with the gutshot + two pair outs + the possibility you have the best hand I call the turn and re-evaluate on the river.

spamuell

05-17-2005, 02:49 PM

This is tough because given your description of the CO, I can easily see him having 99-KK and thinking, well no one has said they have an A and they probably would have raised the flop, the BB is probably betting some stupid turned straight draw, I'll raise to protect my hand now and check behind the river. I know it seems unlikely that he'd actually think this much but given the 88 hand you talked about earlier, it certainly seems possible.

So then you have to consider why is the BB betting the turn? If he's a decent playing TAG, I just can't put him on anything here except 66 or maybe AJs and he wanted to see if the CO would cap. So I think you can fold this turn, but because of the BB not the CO. I must be missing some hands BB could have though, I don't see a decent TAG calling two cold with suited connectors below about KQs here though. I guess he could have 99 and the CO could have one of the weaker hands that I mentioned before, but the parlay of these two events is unlikely, I'd fold too.

Entity

05-17-2005, 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Once the button folds, I'd check-raise this flop almost every time. You're going to be ahead of the BB most of the time, and given your read, a check-raise should tell you pretty quickly where you stand in relation to the CO. That said, I don't see what's so tough about folding this turn.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Gutshot + 2pr outs + possible best hand. That's why it's a tough fold.

I agree that I should have c/r'd the flop. Not doing so cost me the pot here.

Rob

Isura

05-17-2005, 03:01 PM

Check-raise that flop. You can see BB's reaction, and see if CO 3-bets. IF BB is solid and calls your flop c/r, you can probably put him on AK-AQ, 88-77 and less likely KK-QQ. (He might also have called with AA preflop if he's tricky). When BB leads the turn looks like he's using CO to protect, because he would have check-raised the turn to get 2BB from both with a set and maybe AK.The turn seems like a good spot for BB to bet out KK-TT, AQ and try to get you to fold a better hand,since only CO has shown strength on the flop. I'd rather lead the turn, preparing to fold to a raise from BB, and a calldown if BB folds and CO raises.

Isura

05-17-2005, 03:04 PM

Entity, shouldn't you be playing like 5/10 by now? You are too good to still be playing 2/4.

spamuell

05-17-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Entity, shouldn't you be playing like 5/10 by now? You are too good to still be playing 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, Entity's posts are great.

Entity

05-17-2005, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Entity, shouldn't you be playing like 5/10 by now? You are too good to still be playing 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm bonus-clearing at Stars and the $3/6 games sucked this morning, so I stopped in at the heaven that is Stars $2/4 6max. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

MarkD

05-17-2005, 03:37 PM

Is the 3-bet with AT from the SB after a raise and cold call really that standard? I just haven't seen it mentioned at all in this thread and it seems borderline at best to me atm.

Trix

05-17-2005, 03:44 PM

Easy fold for me, he would have to be very overaggro for me to play it and I may prefer to do it with a coldcall anyway as it would seem like I would have to hit a good flop to get to showdown then.

spamuell

05-17-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is the 3-bet with AT from the SB after a raise and cold call really that standard? I just haven't seen it mentioned at all in this thread and it seems borderline at best to me atm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the raiser is overaggro and the coldcaller is a calling-station donk so it seems good to me. I prefer it to cold-calling because you're likely to be ahead and you put more pressure on the CO so he's less likely to get out of line post-flop in this hand. Plus meta-game considerations.

MarkD

05-17-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well the raiser is overaggro and the coldcaller is a calling-station donk so it seems good to me. I prefer it to cold-calling because you're likely to be ahead and you put more pressure on the CO so he's less likely to get out of line post-flop in this hand. Plus meta-game considerations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it was wrong. I just find it interesting that no comment was made as it seems extremely borderline to me for exactly the reasons that Trix posted above. And like you and Trix if I'm not going to fold here I would consider cold-calling.

I don't think meta-game matters that much here - definitely not enough to swing the decision.

Entity

05-17-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is the 3-bet with AT from the SB after a raise and cold call really that standard? I just haven't seen it mentioned at all in this thread and it seems borderline at best to me atm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Mark,

I didn't want to give BB an excuse to call, as he seemed to be a decent player, and Button's calling station tendencies didn't change much between how I'd play this here and standard blind defense for me. CO's openraising standards are basically 44+, any Ace, K9+, QJ, QT, etc., here, and given his fairly wide range and Button's literally "any two" coldcalling standards, I thought that 3-betting was preferrable to coolcalling to shut BB out.

In this hand, CO had KK and BB had KJo (wtf?) for some weird tilty-play. BB went back to normal after this hand -- it was a very weird hand overall.

Rob

ClaytonN

05-17-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Reads: CO seems ok, though overaggressive. Had a weird hand against him earlier where he raised, I 3-bet 88 OTB, and he capped. Flop came 825 and he bet, I raised, he called. Turn was an A and he bet-folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how this justifies three-betting from the SB?

Entity

05-17-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reads: CO seems ok, though overaggressive. Had a weird hand against him earlier where he raised, I 3-bet 88 OTB, and he capped. Flop came 825 and he bet, I raised, he called. Turn was an A and he bet-folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how this justifies three-betting from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my post on his range of hands preflop. It's a wide range. That comment was directed to his postflop play, which is aggressive in a weird sort of way, and to the fact that he's overaggressive preflop with more marginalish hands (what hands would he bet-call, bet-fold with that are worth capping preflop? TT?).

Rob

Scotch78

05-17-2005, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Gutshot + 2pr outs + possible best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

All nine of your outs are dirty, and I think it's very unlikely you're best at the moment.

Scott

Isura

05-17-2005, 06:27 PM