Getting paid

[Ghazban]

How's my line here? I wanted to get all the money in (duh) by the river but wasn't sure what the best way to do it was. Is checkraising the flop a colossal error? Villain was autobetting pot on any flop he had raised preflop but would often slow down if called. Most hands at this table did not get to showdown so it was difficult to know exactly how people were playing.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($6.30)
Hero ($21.90)
UTG ($13.40)
MP ($12.40)
Button ($32.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $0.85</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $0.60.

Flop: ($1.80) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $1.8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, Button calls $3.20.

Turn: ($11.80) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, Button calls $7.

River: ($25.80) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9.05 (All-In)</font>, Button calls $9.05.

Final Pot: $43.90

[-Skeme-]

If he slows down when called, maybe a check-raise isn't the best option. I mean, you get it all in with the nuts, so apparently it was fine, but KT isn't calling a check-raise here, is he? Does he autobet only the flop and not the turn? I'd probably check-call, check-call and jam on river or just check-jam on turn. I don't know. OTOH, if he's slowing down to a call with nothing, he's not betting the turn either. I think check-calling on the flop is best. It has a few plus': 1) Let's him make his mandatory continuation bet. Your check-raise scare him off. 2) If he missed, he'll fold to a check-raise, but check-calling gives him the option to fire again on the turn. 3) If he did hit, he'll bet again, but might fold a weak Q to a check-raise. Or anything else that's pretty weak. 4) It gives him a chance to improve to a better second best hand.

[Finite_Risk]

what did villian have?

[Ghazban]

Well, my thought process regarding the flop checkraise was that it would make the pot a size where I could make reasonable bets on the turn and river and get all-in. The range of hands with which I'll checkraise this flop is fairly large. I wouldn't be above doing it with any pair, any queen, or even a pure bluff to knock the raiser off unpaired overcards. A turn checkraise, however, indicates much greater strength (not to mention, he might not even bet the turn).

I freely admit this might be the wrong way to think about the hand, though.

[Leaky Game]

I think I agree with Skeme. He's not calling the check raise unless he's pretty strong in which case he's likely to call a lead out bet by you on the turn. I figure this is one of those AQ who couldn't get away from it so you're good anyway.

For future reference, I might even consider betting out on the flop. He's going to call you if he's strong and there's no way he's going to put you on quads. If he calls your flop bet, then I might consider checkraising to him on the turn or just pushing.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
what did villian have?

[/ QUOTE ]

KQo

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Check raising the flop is really bad. Anyone should understand they are completely behind. The only hands that might call are AA KK, QQ would of given you all their money anyway.

There is really no thinking human being who is going to pay this off. You want another card to come, it really cant hurt you. A) You give nothing away, B) he might improve to the 2nd best hand, C) The you can make a larger move becuase of the size of the pot.

If he checks the turn, I like making a small bet, a hopeless hand might call, a decent hand might try to bluff. You can usually get 2 minor bets in, and then again you give him another chance to improve on the river, and still pump the pot.

[Hoopster81]

Looks like this guy was just and idiot and was going to pay you off no matter what you did. Pair of 2s on the board and lots of action coming from one of the blinds?? Unless he had a boat (which it does not seem like he did from how he played it) he was just a poor player who was destined to pay you off.

Against better players, it is hard to make a lot of $$$ off flopped quads like that (especially in the blind), unless they fill up somewhere. I don't like the check-raise because I want to give him every opportunity to make his hand.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
If he checks the turn, I like making a small bet, a hopeless hand might call, a decent hand might try to bluff. You can usually get 2 minor bets in, and then again you give him another chance to improve on the river, and still pump the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't bet if he checks the turn because I'm out of position. If I check/call flop and he checks the turn through, there's no chance in hell of me getting a lot of money in on the river as the pot will still be fairly small relative to stack sizes and, unless he's slowplaying QQ, I'll bet and he'll call with a hand and fold without one.

I didn't think of it this way during the hand, but now I'm thinking my flop checkraise was gambling that he'd have enough of a hand to play a big pot. I could make more from AK or JJ or something like that if I give him a chance to catch up but I think I can make more from AA/KK/AQ/KQ by getting some more money in on the flop.

Against a thinking player, I don't think I can win a big pot without him having QQ but, against typical .10/.25 donks, good queens will have a hard time getting away (as every bet they face is smallish compared to the pot size).

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he checks the turn, I like making a small bet, a hopeless hand might call, a decent hand might try to bluff. You can usually get 2 minor bets in, and then again you give him another chance to improve on the river, and still pump the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't bet if he checks the turn because I'm out of position. If I check/call flop and he checks the turn through, there's no chance in hell of me getting a lot of money in on the river as the pot will still be fairly small relative to stack sizes and, unless he's slowplaying QQ, I'll bet and he'll call with a hand and fold without one.

I didn't think of it this way during the hand, but now I'm thinking my flop checkraise was gambling that he'd have enough of a hand to play a big pot. I could make more from AK or JJ or something like that if I give him a chance to catch up but I think I can make more from AA/KK/AQ/KQ by getting some more money in on the flop.

Against a thinking player, I don't think I can win a big pot without him having QQ but, against typical .10/.25 donks, good queens will have a hard time getting away (as every bet they face is smallish compared to the pot size).

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, I misread it.

Anyhow, unless your image is recklessly aggressive, this check raise doesnt accomplish anything.

I play on Bodog, I know what youre talking about when playing insanely bad players. Even still, theres a limit to the changes you can make, even a bad player should of folded here.

[-Skeme-]

So what's wrong with check-calling and then leading the turn?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
So what's wrong with check-calling and then leading the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

nothing?

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
So what's wrong with check-calling and then leading the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing at all, but the pot is then too small to get all-in by the river if he doesn't help me out and raise somewhere. Also, check/calling flop and leading the turn is almost always a very strong hand and, if he knows that, he might be able to get away.

That's not to say its a bad line, just pointing out its faults.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what's wrong with check-calling and then leading the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing at all, but the pot is then too small to get all-in by the river if he doesn't help me out and raise somewhere. Also, check/calling flop and leading the turn is almost always a very strong hand and, if he knows that, he might be able to get away.

That's not to say its a bad line, just pointing out its faults.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point everyone here is trying to make that getting someone all in when you flop quads is virtually impossible, and when it does happen its usually becuase of their misplay and not your great moves. Becuase of that your major goal is try to just milk it for a little bit.

Why would anyone go all in here unless they flopped a full?
Your best bet is to represent something weak, like A high, small pockets, etc. That way he may try to bluff you off, or he may catch and feel he is betting for value.

Ask yourself if the situations were reversed, would you have ever gotten all in here? Of course not.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not to say its a bad line, just pointing out its faults.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every line that will be suggested in this thread will have faults. On the flop you can check-raise, check-call or just lead out. I would say check-raising is the worst of the trio and cases can be made for the remaining two.

[xorbie]

With the flop being what it is, I like leading out on the flop for very little (say half pot). This lets him raise, putting you on either a flush draw or a middle pair thinking he missed. Then you can call, lead the turn (hope for another raise), and then bet the river.