I sorta played this one weird against a weird player

[anduril]

online 3-6NL SH, villain limps alot and is then ultra-aggressive postflop, bluffs more than he should. I am currently running really bad so I've tightened up a little and I'm sure he knows this. The game is full but for 10 hands or so we were 5 handed before the seats got filled up again.

I($586) open in the CO to $16 with QJo, villain($330) calls.


flop is K J 10r. He bets $8, I raise to $25, he calls.

turn J, he bets $21, I raise to $90, he insta-pushes. I know he's a perpetual bluffer/LAG but...UGH.

I think there are various arguments to play this hand several ways, so, take your pick I guess.

[Rococo]

Among other things, I absolutely hate this raise on the flop. If Villain is betting the flop with nothing but air, there is no need to raise. There is zero chance that Villain will fold a hand that is ahead of you, and little chance that he will call with a hand that is behind you. Moreover, you don't stand to make much with your draw if it hits, so the deception value of your semi-bluff raise is minimal.

[emil3000]

I'd call the turn, and probably the river if he keeps betting small and you don't improve. I don't see much value in the raise, you're letting him off cheap if you have him beat, and you probably don't. Don't call the push, that would be real , bad. He has a full house, or at the minimum the straight.

[NiceCatch]

[ QUOTE ]
Among other things, I absolutely hate this raise on the flop. If Villain is betting the flop with nothing but air, there is no need to raise. There is zero chance that Villain will fold a hand that is ahead of you, and little chance that he will call with a hand that is behind you. Moreover, you don't stand to make much with your draw if it hits, so the deception value of your semi-bluff raise is minimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post.

[foldem]

Why are you giving a LAG bluffer credit for a boat/straight. This is a strange line to take with a flopped straight or two pair/set. I think there is a good chance he has at best a worse jack. I actually like the turn raise, since you raised on the flop it is hard for him to put you on a jack. I am calling here especially getting over 2-1 on my money.

[creedofhubris]

I've got no problem with any of your play in this hand, and I would call the turn all-in.

[emil3000]

ok.

I just think it's way too much aggression, I mean, lagginess is fine and all but this is a board that make hands bigger than trips pretty often. Maybe this opponent is that agg tho.

[Rococo]

Creed,

I really respect your opinion. Can you explain why you like the flop raise? I really hate it.

[foldem]

I am not creed but I can give you a couple of reason's why a flop raise is good.

1. He takes control of the pot.

2. He is free rolling against many Qx hands that may want to draw to the straight.

3. Oftentimes he will be able to check behind on the turn, if unimproved, drawing to the nuts.

4. Playing shorthanded it is important to raise flops with a wide range of hands, so that you will be paid off in the future on your big hands.

[Rococo]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not creed but I can give you a couple of reason's why a flop raise is good.

1. He takes control of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to understand why it is helpful to take control of the pot here. This statement sort of begs the question.

[ QUOTE ]
2. He is free rolling against many Qx hands that may want to draw to the straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it. I know that Villain is LAG, but is he LAG enough to play something as ragged as Q6. I guess that QT is a possibility, but so is Q9.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Oftentimes he will be able to check behind on the turn, if unimproved, drawing to the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this guy is that LAG, I don't think that he will check a hand that beats Hero (i.e. top pair) if the turn comes a brick.

[ QUOTE ]
4. Playing shorthanded it is important to raise flops with a wide range of hands, so that you will be paid off in the future on your big hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I generally find that people get wed to top pair much more in 6-max than full ring, regardless of what my image is.

[anduril]

[ QUOTE ]
Creed,

I really respect your opinion. Can you explain why you like the flop raise? I really hate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious to hear creed's opinion on the flop raise as well. My thought was to charge a worse Q or even a 10 here, and I can more than likely check through a bad turn card. The turn card was extremely good for me and he bet into me again which I thought to be strange and I can't see him putting me on my hand, more likely he is putting me on a K or possibly AK.

[creedofhubris]

OK, I like the raise because opponent is not really betting. It's more of an aggressive check. Opponent bets $8 into a $35 pot. What is that? That's a nothing bet. So you treat it like he hasn't bet at all, and make YOUR standard pot-sized this-flop-hit-me-hard bet.

If opponent made a real bet on the flop, then I would just call, same as everyone.

I tend to see people making this teeny bet with two sorts of hands: a draw, and the nuts. If villain comes over the top after you "raise", he has helpfully told you that he has a monster, and you can decide whether you want to chase your straight.

As an aside: if all you had was the draw, I wouldn't mind a call here. Since you've got a medium made hand in addition to your draw, I like the raise a lot better.

[anduril]

[ QUOTE ]
Among other things, I absolutely hate this raise on the flop. If Villain is betting the flop with nothing but air, there is no need to raise. There is zero chance that Villain will fold a hand that is ahead of you, and little chance that he will call with a hand that is behind you. Moreover, you don't stand to make much with your draw if it hits, so the deception value of your semi-bluff raise is minimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I didn't mention it in my OP, but he is one of those guys who reacts to a raise by thinking, "F you you can't raise me I rule!!" So his pride takes over and tries desperately to take the pot away. Not saying that happened in this instance but I had a hard time crediting him with any good hand but that in no way says he is folding to a raise.

good post btw. Sometimes I am overaggressive at the wrong time.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not creed but I can give you a couple of reason's why a flop raise is good.

1. He takes control of the pot.

2. He is free rolling against many Qx hands that may want to draw to the straight.

3. Oftentimes he will be able to check behind on the turn, if unimproved, drawing to the nuts.

4. Playing shorthanded it is important to raise flops with a wide range of hands, so that you will be paid off in the future on your big hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are all excellent points.

#1 (taking control of hand) is good because it allows you to control the size of the pot by betting/not betting the turn.

#3, Checking the turn behind unimproved, and autocall river, is a good line to take that is set up by the flop raise.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

maybe i'm weak, but i just call the flop and i just call the turn.

[BobboFitos]

[this discussion]

at first i sorta assumed a flop raise was natural, but rococco makes a really good point. raising this flop is bad.

Vs a LAG player there is no need to take control of the pot. what is he leading into you with? pure bluff? no need to snap him off. Qx? Any conceivable Qx is in better shape then us. (AQ, KQ, QJ tied, Q9... only QT is bad)
AK, KQ, KJ, KT all are in fine shape. JT. etc. only hand which he may lead at your (MAY) and then fold would be AJ. Thats a small window.

This is such a coordinated board your hand isn't as good as it seems. I'm up for calling the flop and evaluating the turn.

As played out, turn is pretty easy call for the rest of your stack, but flop play is very iffy.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to see people making this teeny bet with two sorts of hands: a draw, and the nuts. If villain comes over the top after you "raise", he has helpfully told you that he has a monster, and you can decide whether you want to chase your straight.

As an aside: if all you had was the draw, I wouldn't mind a call here. Since you've got a medium made hand in addition to your draw, I like the raise a lot better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your read is pretty good, but... what draws can he have ?

KQ, QJ are reasonable and solid draws. he could very well put alot of heat on us if we raise the flop as well.

if he's very LAG he could have Qx where x doesn't hit the board but it seems so low %. Ax? I dunno, I doubt ace high will lead into pfr on that board, LAGgy or no.