TT from the button flops oesd (100NL 6max)

[jhall23]

Villian in this hand is pretty loose and aggressive but seems to not be totally clueless. I have seen him make some calls on the flop with things like a gutshot on a two flush board.

He has laid down to continuation bets by me in the past, but this is the first time he has lead into me. I think my Queen straight outs are good (at least to tie) the as I don't think he would lead that strong with a gutshot. My 7's and ten's are probably clean too I would suspect but maybe we can discount them slightly.

SB is a total tool who call's pretty much any raise PF.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($33.6)
MP ($37.35)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($145.15)</font>
<font color="#C00000">SB ($9)</font>
<font color="#C00000">BB ($137.5)</font>

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, SB (poster) calls $4.50, BB calls $4, MP folds.

Flop: ($16) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $15.2</font>.

[jhall23]

Anybody?

The two options I was weighing at the time where a bump to $40 or calling to see the turn. I definetly think that BB has at least some piece of this since I haven't seen him lead into me yet.

[PinkSteel]

I don't play 6max so I may be way off, but you wanted commentary.... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I play TT for set value, and the problem now is your set value is toast. If a T comes you're scared to death of a straight. So you're really playing just the OESD, but you only have one card to it.

You have position, great, but if this guy is really aggressive he's going to charge you to draw. You're about 5:1 to hit the straight on the turn, right? If a 7 or Q falls, are you going to get paid?

This may be uberweak for 6max, but in a full ring I mutter something about a crappy flop to myself, then flip a coin betwen calling and folding. I wouldn't raise it. Strictly my opinion....

[ZimbuTheMonkey]

I would fold. I can't see you being ahead right now, and I doubt you'll be paid off if you do hit.

[kongo_totte]

I would fold to. I hade a smiliar situation yesterday where I was drawing dead to the flopped nut straight. I valueble reminder that when you have to draw, it should be to the nuts.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play 6max so I may be way off, but you wanted commentary.... /images/graemlins/smile.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

Please feel free, the more the better

[ QUOTE ]


I play TT for set value, and the problem now is your set value is toast. If a T comes you're scared to death of a straight. So you're really playing just the OESD, but you only have one card to it.

You have position, great, but if this guy is really aggressive he's going to charge you to draw. You're about 5:1 to hit the straight on the turn, right? If a 7 or Q falls, are you going to get paid?

This may be uberweak for 6max, but in a full ring I mutter something about a crappy flop to myself, then flip a coin betwen calling and folding. I wouldn't raise it. Strictly my opinion....

[/ QUOTE ]

TT definetly can't be played for set value alone in the 6max games, but you do have to be carefull with it when there are a few overcards.

The reason I was thinking of possibly raising in this hand was that the BB should have me on a wide range of hands that I would have raised from the button with. TT is definetly one of the better hands I'm raising with. Because of this he might lead into me because he would know that I could easily have missed this flop. SB in this hand as I mentioned is a total tool so he may just have any piece of this board and hope that I missed so that he can get a showdown with him. If I raise him here I think I can get him to laydown his TP hands at a minimum. If pushed I obviously fold. Then if I don't make my draw I shut it down on the turn.

I don't think folding is bad here at all. I just don't see a clear line which is best.

EDIT: Just want to add, if SB wasn't a tool and/or didn't have such a short stack I would not consider raising this flop.

[jonnyUCB]

tell me about your relationship with him for the duration of the time you've played with him. If you want to play this hand at all there are so many more considerations than your hand and the board.

[jhall23]

We've played about 40 hands together up to this point.

As I said this is the first time that he has lead into me after I was the PFR. Several times he has called my PFR but then folded to a continuation bet on the flop. I've been pretty aggressive especially from the CO and Button.

One limped hand I flopped mid pair from BB and bet flop. He called with a gutshot and overcard and checked down to the river.

Other than that we haven't tangeled much. There was another LAG with us for a while so we haven't seen too many flops and even less hands showndown. He seems much looser pre-flop then post. I would have a tighter image then him, at least when calling raises. Basically the three of us had been taking all the money from several bad short stacks over this period of time.

[jonnyUCB]

yea I don't see him giving up his hand to anything but enormous pressure. Not worth chasing here but make sure u consider this exchange in future hands.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Call. He has AJ or QJ most of the time and 99/88 the rest. Very occasionally QT. There is a decent chance he slows down on the turn and gives you a free/cheap river. If he prices you out on the turn, fold it then. But if you improve on the turn, you may still get another PSB or more out of him so it is a flop call, IMO.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
Call. He has AJ or QJ most of the time and 99/88 the rest. Very occasionally QT. There is a decent chance he slows down on the turn and gives you a free/cheap river. If he prices you out on the turn, fold it then. But if you improve on the turn, you may still get another PSB or more out of him so it is a flop call, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the line I took. I did feel I could get at least a pot sized bet if hit, but I ended up folding the turn unimproved. What odd's are you looking to be laid to make a turn call here? Anything 3:1 or better ?

Villian showed down AJ. SB lucks out with QT and gets some extra money to be distributed around later.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call. He has AJ or QJ most of the time and 99/88 the rest. Very occasionally QT. There is a decent chance he slows down on the turn and gives you a free/cheap river. If he prices you out on the turn, fold it then. But if you improve on the turn, you may still get another PSB or more out of him so it is a flop call, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the line I took. I did feel I could get at least a pot sized bet if hit, but I ended up folding the turn unimproved. What odd's are you looking to be laid to make a turn call here? Anything 3:1 or better ?

Villian showed down AJ. SB lucks out with QT and gets some extra money to be distributed around later.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd actually like to see 4:1 or better on the turn because once someone is making a 1/2 pot bet on the turn (giving you 3:1) into two other opponents, you have to start being worried that your outs might not be clean and that even if you hit you are going to get clobbered.

[jhall23]

Cool, I folded to about a 1/2 pot bet (total pot that is including side pot). I thought he seemed to like his hand pretty well considering he is playing in a pretty small side pot with me.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Cool, I folded to about a 1/2 pot bet (total pot that is including side pot). I thought he seemed to like his hand pretty well considering he is playing in a pretty small side pot with me.

[/ QUOTE ]
NH. As it turned out, you were only playing for the side pot (possibly a split on the main pot) so you didn't have odds to call. And he could have had QT or JJ in which case you could have hit an 'out' and been in real trouble.

[creedofhubris]

Calling a pot-sized bet headsup with a one-card open-end draw tends to be a mistake, you won't be paid off enough to make it worthwhile. It's too obvious.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling a pot-sized bet headsup with a one-card open-end draw tends to be a mistake, you won't be paid off enough to make it worthwhile. It's too obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Although I agree in general, I think in this case, since he has position, he has a good idea what his opponent has, and he was the PFR so it is hard for villain to put him on a ten, I think it is not a mistake. Do you disagree?

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling a pot-sized bet headsup with a one-card open-end draw tends to be a mistake, you won't be paid off enough to make it worthwhile. It's too obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Although I agree in general, I think in this case, since he has position, he has a good idea what his opponent has, and he was the PFR so it is hard for villain to put him on a ten, I think it is not a mistake. Do you disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Marginal call at best. If opponent is a known bluffer, or can be pushed out of the hand later even if hero misses, then it's better, but against Joe average I would fold.