POLL: Play the board's straight?

[btspider]

Just sat down. No significant reads on the two villians. So a simple poll on my river action.

vote before reading replies

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: (1.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (1.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero ????

If you call, do you call a raise?
If you raise, do you call a 3-bet?

[istewart]

What is the rake at 1/2?

[btspider]

probably no rake unless someone raises.. actually maybe 1/2 SB raked once i call. i think its 50c at $5.

[@bsolute_luck]

i folded. you split at best and the pot is miniscule uber-tiny. i could careless if he takes this.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
i folded. you split at best and the pot is miniscule uber-tiny. i could careless if he takes this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Just sat down. No significant reads on the two villians. So a simple poll on my river action:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: (1.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (1.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero ????

If you call, do you call a raise?
If you raise, do you call a 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an easy fold. You are investing 1 BB to win *AT MOST* .75 BB (if UTG folds). If they both call, you win .50 BB. Of course, you can lose your BB if someone happens to have run down a better straight. It's just not worth it.

[TomBrooks]

What possible reason would there be to raise? How could anybody fold a straight for one bet? I vote call.

Edit: Didn't notice how small the pot was. I could see a fold here based on that.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
What possible reason would there be to raise? How could anybody fold a straight for one bet? I vote call.

[/ QUOTE ]

everyone at the table has a straight. you lose to a 9. why invest 1BB to maybe win something like .75BB? makes no sense.

[MrWookie47]

Packing a 9 is anything but a given. In a larger pot, this is a no-brainer call, but this pot is so tiny that it looks like a fold.

[pokerrookie]

Pot is small. He bet first, let him have it.

[toss]

Calling in this 1.5 BB pot for a chop AND its going to be raked one SB? Its like in Omaha Hi/Lo where you putting in money for the low only to be quartered or third'D.

[tijean]

You've got no money in this pot aside from your blind. And the best case scenario is that UTG is a complete donk and folds so the split is two ways instead of three. Plus, if it splits three ways, you'll be losing money after the rake. Easy fold.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
What possible reason would there be to raise? How could anybody fold a straight for one bet? I vote call.

Edit: Didn't notice how small the pot was. I could see a fold here based on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

the reason to raise would be to try split it two ways instead of three.. barring a nine being out there. it would have no effect on the rake either.

not that i'd raise here.. that's just the reason behind it.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got no money in this pot aside from your blind. And the best case scenario is that UTG is a complete donk and folds so the split is two ways instead of three. Plus, if it splits three ways, you'll be losing money after the rake. Easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

your thinking is really flawed or simply confusing me:

- it doesn't matter what i've put into the pot myself. there is money up for grabs which belongs to no one and i have 3 choices to maximize my share of it. would your decision somehow be different if you VPIP'd instead?

- i won't lose money postrake if its split 3-ways. double check the pot size and payoff. my blind is gone.. its no longer my money.

- how would UTG be a complete donk in folding and yet you suggest that Hero folds here? maybe this is related to the second part and thinking its a loss if its split 3-ways.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
And the best case scenario is that UTG is a complete donk and folds so the split is two ways instead of three.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if we fold we're the donk?

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
how would UTG be a complete donk in folding and yet you suggest that Hero folds here? maybe this is related to the second part and thinking its a loss if its split 3-ways.

[/ QUOTE ]
UTG is closing the action. You aren't. The (small) chance that UTG has a 9 is why your decision to fold/call/raise is harder than UTG's would be closing the action.

I voted fold.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how would UTG be a complete donk in folding and yet you suggest that Hero folds here? maybe this is related to the second part and thinking its a loss if its split 3-ways.

[/ QUOTE ]
UTG is closing the action. You aren't. The (small) chance that UTG has a 9 is why your decision to fold/call/raise is harder than UTG's would be closing the action.

I voted fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, but i don't think this was his thought process..

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]

yes, but i don't think this was his thought process..

[/ QUOTE ]
Hehe, I didn't notice the "you don't have any money invested" comment.

[matt42s]

I folded, based on pot size and risk v reward but I see it as an interesting game theory problem. I haven't analysed game theory before so please point me in the right direction when I get it wrong. I won't get a chance to do it properly for a day or so but expect another post when I do.

As an intro, and to estimate whether a full analysis is needed I guessed the assumptions a caller might be using.
SB, being first in, is taking a shot and is content to split. Both SB and Hero are likely to fold to a raise from UTG? UTG will likely only raise with the 9 and will call without it
15% of the time UTG has a 9. (1-41/45*41/44)
85% chop 3 way. EV 0.5
15% SB and Hero fold to UTG. EV -1
(0.85*0.5) + (0.15*-1) = 0.275
A call based on that logic is +EV but the assumptions are incomplete.

The following is only a quick approximation. If we give SB the 9 his fair share of the time ~15%, you chop 70%, lose 30%. EV= +0.05

Based on these estimates, I would probably change my vote to a call but I think the full analysis will show its very close either way. Obviously reads would help. Anyone care to give me some numbers on how often SB leads with a bluff?

[ClaytonN]

Win money

Not pots

[btspider]

i'm pretty surprised no one has said raise.

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for those who like results

i folded.
UTG calls.
SB shows A9 and drags the tiny pot.
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[scotty34]

Fold, and this shouldn't even be close. You are risking 1BB to win a maximum of 1.25BB (if the other guy folds). Also, you could get trapped in a raising war, and it would cost you even more. Pick your battles wisely, this should not be one of them.

Edit: My math is slightly off, but I don't feel the need to correct it, my point is the same.