Why bother at 5/10

[imitation]

I go to war to much in these games, anyway this player is tight. Does anyone like this? His flop call is strange, he had stats like 20/10/4 and was playing fit or fold postflop. When he calls the flop I think he is waiting to see if I give up on the turn, I am doing this with the other lpp players at the table, so I have reason to think his flop call means nothing.

I still think this hand is pretty ass, I played 2hrs of 5/10 today and ran terrible on my return (thankfully the games are still full of idiots so i'm not really worried), so maybe this was somewhat tilty.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: 6.70 BB

[stripsqueez]

i like it - given he can fold post flop mixing in a pre-flop cap is good and the post flop seems to follow

i play a bit of 3/6 5 max and 5/10 6 max - i think i have occasionally suffered from usually playing for more by getting too pushy - its a fine line though - i dont like to treat these guys with much respect and running over the game with some rampant aggro is a workable plan

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Stefan_K]

Post flop i would play the same, not sure of the capping preflop but i like it.

[PokerBob]

I think you're pushing your luck here. What is your plan if he calls the turn?

[Turning Stone Pro]

Let me see if I understand. You cap the flop with a marginal hand like a small pocket after a tight player three bets you, then you lead into a board with two overcards which, 95% of the time, will put you well behind, and you wonder why you ran terrible.

You then deem it necessary to call the other players a bunch of "idiots". Ironic.

Not to be rude, but if I was at the table and saw your play on this hand I would never leave.

TSP

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me see if I understand. You cap the flop with a marginal hand like a small pocket after a tight player three bets you, then you lead into a board with two overcards which, 95% of the time, will put you well behind, and you wonder why you ran terrible.

You then deem it necessary to call the other players a bunch of "idiots". Ironic.

Not to be rude, but if I was at the table and saw your play on this hand I would never leave.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]


Don't forget, we're up against a thinking player that knows we're a thinking player as well.

[ISF]

[ QUOTE ]
he had stats like 20/10/4 and was playing fit or fold postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why did you bet the turn with three over cards one of which is an ace? If he was playing fit or fold then what does the pre flop cap accomplish. It is not for equity vs someone with a 10% pfr, and if he is very weak then you would be much better calling and betting or check raising a flop that suits your hand. You got lucky here, but this is not the way to beat the 5/10 game.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Don't forget, we're up against a thinking player that knows we're a thinking player as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then villain played his hand horibly IMO, unless he held exactly KQ or KT.

[MAxx]

honestly, it looks somewhat tilty to me. it did work though... question is will it work often enough to make the play profitable?

[MarkD]

I think the results are skewing everyone's answer here. This looks like a misplayed hand to me. I think you overplayed your hand and got lucky. That's fine though, we all need some luck every now and then.

[Your Mom]

You have to make these kind of change up plays to be any good. Making too many of them is a serious leak, but not making any of these type of plays will hold you back from being really good.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're pushing your luck here. What is your plan if he calls the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

open fold the river.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to make these kind of change up plays to be any good. Making too many of them is a serious leak, but not making any of these type of plays will hold you back from being really good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The preflop cap isn't too bad -- you have to put your 20/10/4 opponent on either AK/AQ/KQ or a pocket here, and if it's a pocket, capping pf might get him to fold his higher pocket if an ace (or maybe even a king) hits the flop.

As it happened, Villain called the flop bet -- but really, image-wise, who likes 3-betting preflop and then folding the flop for one small bet? Just about nobody, even if it's -EV to call here with 88 or 99 or TT. So Villain might well call here with any of his 3-bet-preflop hands.

OP got a read that Villain wanted to see whether OP was serious . . . making the turn bet reasonable, as it only needs a 1/6 chance of working. The villain didn't necessarily fold KQ or KT here -- he could very well have folded a pocket, including KK and QQ. The pot isn't so big that a tight opponent is going to call down with 2nd pair here against a preflop capper when there's an ace on the board.

The preflop cap is a tiny bit sketchy, and the turn bet is even a little bit sketchier, but this is far from being a crime, especially against this specific opponent. Against a loose-passive-calling station this line is a crime. Against a tight player that respects a preflop cap from another tight player, I think plays like this are okay to use sporadically. You end up showing down 55 here (let's say that villain calls the turn bet, and the river is checked through) and you're going to get a helluva lot more action next time you cap preflop with AA against this guy.

[krishanleong]

I call the preflop 3-bet and check fold the flop.

Krishan

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. The preflop cap isn't too bad -- you have to put your 20/10/4 opponent on either AK/AQ/KQ or a pocket here, and if it's a pocket, capping pf might get him to fold his higher pocket if an ace (or maybe even a king) hits the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I do not beleive the standard 10% pfr 3bets with KQ.

The other thing is that hero has to put in 2BBs to find out if he can fold villain out. (extra sb on pf cap + flop lead + turn lead). 2 BBs for this 5.7 pot (much of which is created by banging up the 55s). It is almost like you are sending in 2BBs to blow opponent off a 3BB pot, which is obviously only going to work a small percentage of the time. I will concede that if you are going to target an opponent this is the right guy, but I don't think this line will show a profit on this guy in the long run either.

I like checkfolding the flop better after just calling pf 3bet.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to make these kind of change up plays to be any good. Making too many of them is a serious leak, but not making any of these type of plays will hold you back from being really good.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you are playing with the same regular opponents, or you were playing a much higher limit against more thinking opponents, but this is party 5-10 and I don't really think you need to make "change up plays" in this game. I think the natural TAG game that we play contains plenty deception on it's own that the value in these "change ups" is greatly diminished.

edit: Even if this play is +EV (which I highly doubt) it's effect on your bottom line has to be neglible.

If you are making a more general statement about this type of playing improving your overall game and doing it as a learning excercise / experiment then I can see value there. edit: I wouldn't argue against this reasoning.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree. The preflop cap isn't too bad -- you have to put your 20/10/4 opponent on either AK/AQ/KQ or a pocket here, and if it's a pocket, capping pf might get him to fold his higher pocket if an ace (or maybe even a king) hits the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I do not beleive the standard 10% pfr 3bets with KQ.

The other thing is that hero has to put in 2BBs to find out if he can fold villain out. (extra sb on pf cap + flop lead + turn lead). 2 BBs for this 5.7 pot (much of which is created by banging up the 55s). It is almost like you are sending in 2BBs to blow opponent off a 3BB pot, which is obviously only going to work a small percentage of the time. I will concede that if you are going to target an opponent this is the right guy, but I don't think this line will show a profit on this guy in the long run either.

I like checkfolding the flop better after just calling pf 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to checkfold the flop after just calling the preflop 3-bet as well, but I've also wondered about exactly this line against tight players . . . hate to be results oriented, but apparently it works at least every once in awhile /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

You're investing 2BB, but it's not all at once. The preflop cap may actually be with the best hand, and the flop bet will also often be with the best hand (though almost definitely not on this flop).

I agree that it's a little sketchy, but I also think that at 5/10 you *do* have players that think occasionally. Certainly this opponent was one of them. Frankly, this is also one of those plays that I think you just need to pull every once in awhile to keep you fresh. OP did that here -- pulled a somewhat wacky play but did it against *exactly* the right opponent, made the turn bet only after making a read on where his opponent stood, and hey, it worked out.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're pushing your luck here. What is your plan if he calls the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

open fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

vnh

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
I call the preflop 3-bet and check fold the flop.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do this every time, it is too easy to run over you.

Edit: However at 5/10, your opponents won't notice and you will continue to dominate them even if you do check/fold this every time.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have to make these kind of change up plays to be any good. Making too many of them is a serious leak, but not making any of these type of plays will hold you back from being really good.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you are playing with the same regular opponents, or you were playing a much higher limit against more thinking opponents, but this is party 5-10 and I don't really think you need to make "change up plays" in this game. I think the natural TAG game that we play contains plenty deception on it's own that the value in these "change ups" is greatly diminished.

edit: Even if this play is +EV (which I highly doubt) it's effect on your bottom line has to be neglible.

If you are making a more general statement about this type of playing improving your overall game and doing it as a learning excercise / experiment then I can see value there. edit: I wouldn't argue against this reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you can check/fold this flop every time in the party 5/10 and still be one of the top players. I also think that really players will pick up on this against you and run you over. To maximize EV, even in the 5/10, this play is necessary against certain opponents like the villian in this hand. At higher limits, obviously this play is completely necessary as the hand reading skills of your opponents goes up by a lot.

Good post MarkD.

[MAxx]

the thing is... he wont have a missed 55 evertime he gets 3bet and just calls pf....

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call the preflop 3-bet and check fold the flop.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do this every time, it is too easy to run over you.

Edit: However at 5/10, your opponents won't notice and you will continue to dominate them even if you do check/fold this every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, you have to get away from crappy hands. This hand is a pissing contest. Pissing contests are -EV. Move on.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is... he wont have a missed 55 evertime he gets 3bet and just calls pf....

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Krishan

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong, you have to get away from crappy hands. This hand is a pissing contest. Pissing contests are -EV. Move on.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know that I necessarily agree with that. Without a little "unreasonable" aggression you basically say to every preflop 3-better or raiser "You can have this pot unless I hit good." Against a thinking opponent, you're going to get run over. And against a weak-tight (or just trusting opponent), that preflop cap means "This pot is MINE unless you have top pair or better!"

You gotta pick your spots, and you can't be nutty every hand. But against some opponents, I absolutely think you have to make a move like this every once in awhile.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wrong, you have to get away from crappy hands. This hand is a pissing contest. Pissing contests are -EV. Move on.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know that I necessarily agree with that. Without a little "unreasonable" aggression you basically say to every preflop 3-better or raiser "You can have this pot unless I hit good." Against a thinking opponent, you're going to get run over. And against a weak-tight (or just trusting opponent), that preflop cap means "This pot is MINE unless you have top pair or better!"

You gotta pick your spots, and you can't be nutty every hand. But against some opponents, I absolutely think you have to make a move like this every once in awhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe because I'm a math player instead of a feel player. I don't know. Here is the thing. When I have a hand that is worth an open raise, it isn't always good. When I get 3-bet by a taggy player when I have 55, I'm not happy. When an ace comes on the turn I fold.

The gist is, I had a hand that was barely enough to open, I got 3-bet by a tag and an ace came on the flop.

What's the point of making a move when everything is stacked against you? Lots of people like to make moves. I don't know why. They aren't necessary.

Don't get me wrong. I am mercilessly agressive. I would cr with 55 on a 27K board. But I don't bluff (A small small amount and only when the odds warrent it). And I think I play a solid game this way.

If you have to get involved, make all your bluffs semibluffs or play more tables.

Krishan

[imitation]

Good reads, nice feedback. I guess read was quite strong in the preflop cap and and postflop. No [censored] guys I know the default play is call the 3-bet and check/fold the flop....if I played the hand that way why would I even post it??? This is an example where I post a hand explain some reasoning and expect some interesting debate on it's merits. I got that some so I'm glad.

TSP you also post crap hands which make me think i'd hang around at your table, so yawn I don't really care what you think about my play. I'm a winning player at 5/10 and 10/20 over almost 100k hands so I don't particulary care if you get a big woody over this hand.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is... he wont have a missed 55 evertime he gets 3bet and just calls pf....

[/ QUOTE ]

There are going to be a lot more "bad" flops than "good" flops, especially out of position. You have to take the initiative and take the pot away sometimes.

[MAxx]

i hear you, and i agree in principle. just think this is not a good spot.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
i hear you, and i agree in principle. just think this is not a good spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe because I'm a math player instead of a feel player. I don't know. Here is the thing. When I have a hand that is worth an open raise, it isn't always good. When I get 3-bet by a taggy player when I have 55, I'm not happy. When an ace comes on the turn I fold.

The gist is, I had a hand that was barely enough to open, I got 3-bet by a tag and an ace came on the flop.

What's the point of making a move when everything is stacked against you? Lots of people like to make moves. I don't know why. They aren't necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, I think you're assuming that doing something like capping your 55 preflop is a -EV play on its surface, which might or might not be worthwhile anyway because of how it affects the metagame.

But I don't know that it's a losing play on its face. First of all, you will often be capping with the best hand. But you'll also be buying yourself a fair amount of folding equity after the flop, especially if your table image is strong. My guess is that, under the right conditions - again, table image is essential - capping is the best play, before even considering the metagame effects.

[ddubois]

It's all about making the wrong play at the right time?