basic or no?

[2005]

Am I supposed to fold the turn?


Hand #5730108-2152 at Penacook ($3/$6 Triple Draw 2-7)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 17/May/05 00:25:26

merlyn57 is at seat 0 with $187.50.
Sifmole is at seat 2 with $70.50.
ACWOLF is at seat 3 with $379.25.
Gavin_Griffin is at seat 4 with $545.
The button is at seat 3.

Gavin_Griffin posts the small blind of $1.
merlyn57 posts the big blind of $3.

merlyn57: -- -- -- -- --
Sifmole: -- -- -- -- --
ACWOLF: -- -- -- -- --
Gavin_Griffin: Qc 9d 3h 5c 2c

First Round:

Sifmole raises to $6. ACWOLF folds. Gavin_Griffin
re-raises to $9. merlyn57 folds. Sifmole re-raises
to $12. Gavin_Griffin calls.

Gavin_Griffin takes 2 cards. Sifmole stands pat.

Sifmole: -- -- -- -- --
Gavin_Griffin: 3h 5c 2c 7c Ts

Second Round:

Gavin_Griffin checks. Sifmole bets $3.
Gavin_Griffin calls.

Gavin_Griffin takes 1 card. Sifmole stands pat.

Sifmole: -- -- -- -- --
Gavin_Griffin: 3h 5c 2c 7c 3d

Third Round:

Gavin_Griffin checks. Sifmole bets $6.
Gavin_Griffin calls.

Gavin_Griffin takes 1 card. Sifmole stands pat.

Sifmole: -- -- -- -- --
Gavin_Griffin: 3h 5c 2c 7c 4c

Final Round:

Gavin_Griffin bets $6. Sifmole raises to $12.
Gavin_Griffin re-raises to $18. Sifmole calls.



Showdown:

Gavin_Griffin shows 7c 5c 4c 3h 2c.
Gavin_Griffin has 7 5 4 3 2.
Sifmole mucks cards.
(Sifmole has 9h 7h 6s 3s 2h.)


Hand #5730108-2152 Summary:

$1.50 is raked from a pot of $81.
Gavin_Griffin wins $79.50 with 7 5 4 3 2.
----------------------------------------------------------------

[randomstumbl]

You're getting way more than good enough odds to call on the turn. I'd say the whole hand is pretty automatic.

[timprov]

This is fine.

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting way more than good enough odds to call on the turn. I'd say the whole hand is pretty automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my feeling too, just wanted some confirmation.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I supposed to fold the turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not! (Even before you know he will stand pat with a 9 from the get go and give insane action. Raising the river??? wtf is he thinking? He beats a bluff, and what worse hand bet/calls there?)

With one draw a 4,6 and maybe an 8 will win it for you. You are getting an incredibly nice price on your money, and only catching an 8 may cost you an extra bet, but a 4 or 6 will make you at least an extra bet most of the time.

Preflop really depends on the raiser and BB. I may take any of my options depending on the situation, but I raise more than anything else if the BB has a clue (i.e. will call with some thin draws for the odds if he is closing the action.)

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

I guess the real question is whether you are supposed to three-bet the flop... did you do this because it was short-handed? Was there a lot of loose raising pre-flop? Everything else looks standard to me.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

nh.

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the real question is whether you are supposed to three-bet the flop... did you do this because it was short-handed? Was there a lot of loose raising pre-flop? Everything else looks standard to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to get rid of the BB.

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
I may take any of my options depending on the situation

[/ QUOTE ]

You fold this preflop sometimes?!?!?!


ps, yeah, I was surprised when he raised the river with a 9...

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the real question is whether you are supposed to three-bet the flop... did you do this because it was short-handed? Was there a lot of loose raising pre-flop? Everything else looks standard to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will often 3-bet here to try to knock out the BB, despite being out of position. Of course, sometimes I feel stupid when the original raiser caps with a 1-card draw to a 7 or a pat hand, but I much prefer being OOP with one player than with two.

I tend not to 3bet a two card draw with a 6, even when it's playable, but I think the 532 is worth trying the reraise.

Some weak (or tricky) players will keep a 9 on the first draw with position here so that they are just drawing one. I find this to be a fairly profitable situation as any 9 I make tends to be better and any 8 or 7 can be check-raised. But I don't have solid numbers to back this feeling up.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I may take any of my options depending on the situation

[/ QUOTE ]

You fold this preflop sometimes?!?!?!



[/ QUOTE ]

Against someone who won't open raise without a 1 card draw or a better two card draw, I would fold this. There are not a lot of players who are that tight, so I would have to have to know villain pretty well, but it is a two card draw with some not so good improvements that can be made (that is you can improve to a one card draw that is a 4 straight). Like I said, I usually raise, sometime call, but against a rock I have no problem folding this OOP, especially in the 3/6 where the structure is 1/3 sb.

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
There are not a lot of players who are that tight, so I would have to have to know villain pretty well, but it is a two card draw with some not so good improvements that can be made (that is you can improve to a one card draw that is a 4 straight).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't get your reasoning here. Drawing a 4 to a 2345x is pretty good (~8 outs to a #1 or #5) and a 6 gives you a 2356. Either way you're drawing from the bottom up; I don't think the potential 2-6 straight hurts all that much in this case. I generally show some aggression with a 2345 after the first draw, do you feel that's a mistake?

[fnord_too]

I merely saying that a 23x where x < 7 is worse by a fair amount than 2x7 where x is 3, 4, 5 or 6. When you catch any card in the latter case you have 8 outs to a 7 and 12 outs to an 8. With the former, if you catch a 4 or a 6 you have 4 outs to a 7 and 8 outs to an 8 (albeit a smooth 8). That is pretty significant. In 2-7, I prefer having two non straight cards to building from the bottom up. I would rather have something like 3468 with one draw left than 2,3,4,5 in most cases.

[MarkGritter]

It's actually fairly close (using the twodimes calculator in lowball mode to figure competing one-card last draws:)

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
pokenum -l27 2s 3s 4s 5c / as - 3h 4h 6h 8d / ah
5-card Draw 2-7 Lowball: 1722 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
4s 3s 2s 5c 827 48.03 895 51.97 0 0.00 0.480
8d 6h 4h 3h 895 51.97 827 48.03 0 0.00 0.520
</pre><hr />

The 86's outs have to be severely discounted here because it's up against such a smooth hand. The 54 hand is actually a small favorite if he's paired a couple of cards.

(BTW, I couldn't get the "dead cards" to work on twodimes to simulate earlier discards, I had to make a 3rd junk hand instead... anybody know what's going on?)

[MarkGritter]

8743 is a bigger favorite over 2345, about 55/45. I'll have to rethink how hard I'm pushing that draw.

[fnord_too]

wow, i need to check that tool out (i've only used my own code and poker stove)

can you put in ranges of hands for td? i would be interested to see how each fares against a range of hands.

[MarkGritter]

Sadly, no, you can only calculate specific hands.

I would love to have a PokerStove-style calculator. It probably wouldn't be too hard to put something together which calculated the last draw probabilities over a range of hands.

I'd also like to see some tool that showed hand distribution for particular drawing patterns/standards (i.e., with inputs for starting hands, # of draws, will he break 9, etc.); I've put a little bit of work into doing this but haven't gotten very far.

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
(BTW, I couldn't get the "dead cards" to work on twodimes to simulate earlier discards, I had to make a 3rd junk hand instead... anybody know what's going on?)

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like the web interface inserts an extra '/' before the dead cards, which gets confused with the draw separator. But, you can just put all the previous draws in with the current draw, like this:

2s 3s 4s 5c / As 5s 2c
3h 4h 6h 8d / Ac Td 3c

[EvanJC]

what the hell is going on...