Hand to Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

I actually made it to the poker room tonight and here's a hand I played in the $30-$60 game.

First a little background. The Bellagio has a tournament going right now and I ended up in a $30-$60 game with a little unusual makeup. First, there were (if you include me) five tough regulars, and five people, none of who I knew, who were here for the tournament.

I raised first in two off the button with A/forums/images/icons/spade.gifJ/forums/images/icons/heart.gif. The player on my left folded, but one of the tough players who was on the button made it three bets. Both blinds folded, I made it four bets, and my opponent called. (Remember, at The Bellagio the cap is five bets.)

The flop came A/forums/images/icons/club.gif9/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif6/forums/images/icons/heart.gif. I bet, my opponent raised, I reraised, he made it four bets, and I called.

The turn was the K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. I checked, my opponent bet, and I called.

The river brought another six which paired the board. We both checked and my hand was good.

All comments welcome.

[Dynasty]

The only hand I can put your opponent on is 87s. Or a post-flop overplayed QQ, JJ or TT?

Maybe he misread the board and thought his AT was no good?

[PokerPrince]

I like the way this hand was played. The only thing that I might suggest would be to bet into him on the river. If he had AA, KK, or AK he would most likely cap preflop. If he holds an AQ then you split the pot with him. This bet is mandatory IMO.

PokerPrince

[CreamPuff]

This bet is mandatory IMO.

Really. And if he has AK?
A bet is clearly wrong. Against any reasonable player
he is either getting half the pot, or raised and
losing 2 bets.

His opp. played his hand very bad. There is no flush
draw, so he had a pocket underpair and tried to
get too fancy against and just gave
up on the river.

And taking into account that he may have a pocket underpair,
then KK is another possibity (I'll put him on QQ).

MM is more than happy to have made as much as he did.
Looking at the results and saying a bet is the
best play is not correct.

You must play with some serious maniacs to make this
even close to being a good bet on the river.

[PokerPrince]

Don't you think "if" his opponent had AK he would have capped it preflop? Are you one of these players that ALWAYS puts the other guy on AK? There are a lot of "if's" in poker. You can safely bet the river here as you very well may have the best hand. If you get raised you can muck your hand and you lose the same amount you would have lost if you check-called. Although i'm not sure mucking would be the correct choice in a heads up situation in this scenario. Start thinking from now on so I don't have to explain everything to you.

PokerPrince

[cybertilt]

I like everything except the reraise on the flop. I'm sure you know your opponent, but with the heat on the pre-flop I would have to respect the possibility of AK, AQ, and even AA. I like the turn call, because now we even bring KK into play.

Good win.

[brad]

i think the key is that youre playing against a tough regular that i assume youve played with a lot and know pretty well.

against an unknown player id have to say that you semi overplayed your hand although the illusion of action is there since really objectively i think you put in only 2 sort of speculative small bets so lets look maybe you overplayed your hand in an illusion of action sense by like one half to one small bet.

if the flop had a two flush then probably the only thing anyone could take issue with i guess is the 4 bet preflop.

[mikelow]

I think either you got lucky on this hand or the other player was on meth. There was very little you could beat. He must have had QQ or KK.

[Clarkmeister]

As soon as Mason's opponent raises the flop, his most likely holding becomes a pocket pair less than aces, most likely TT-KK. This becomes even more true when he 4-bets as AK or a set would almost certainly call the 3-bet from Mason and raise the turn. Since the K on the turn didn't help him, we can safely assume TT, JJ or QQ IMO.

I think Mason should have strongly considered leading the river, but its close. I love his play on the other streets.

[JTG51]

"Don't you think "if" his opponent had AK he would have capped it preflop?"

Don't you think he's more likely to cap it with QQ (which seems to be the consensus) that he would be with AK?

The other guys play just doesn't seem to add up to me here. If he really is a solid player, he sould know that MM could 4 bet with more than just the usual suspects in that position. So I'd expect him to make it 5 bets with QQ or JJ in this situation. Then again, I wouldn't expect him to play QQ or JJ so aggressively after the flop.

It doesn't seem to add up to a solid player making a solid play to me. Maybe I'm way off base, but I think the other guy goofed this one up big time.

I hope Mason will give some thoughts on his opponents play also.

[msk]

Mason,

Let me try to understand the thinking --

When he doesn't cap preflop, you realize that he was trying to get it
headsup by three betting, and he has a good but not great hand.

You re-raise on the flop -- saying "I have a good hand" --and
he makes it 4 bets, so you worry that perhaps he has a real hand which
includes an Ace, and when the K comes on the turn you go into check
call mode.

He bets the turn, you call. He could have AK, AQ, AA, KK, all bad. But
also QQ, JJ, TT, 99, or lots of other stuff, so the pot is big enough that
you must call.

Once you are committed, you must check call the river too, but he saves
his last lost bet, knowing you will call. Especially when this bad (for him)
6 comes out, making a call by you mandatory.

You both played it much more aggressively than 95% of the poker players
who would claim otherwise. I would have not re-raised the flop, and I
am very surprised that he then re-raised you, since how is he going to
push you off the pot once it gets this large.

But question of the day for me: Would you fold if a Q came on the river
and he bet out? I guess not. In my experience, they always show me AK
in this spot anyway.... /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

Mark

[mike l.]

my impressions are you played this hand faster than any other hand to talk about youve posted. that's a good thing in general.

i really like the 4 bet preflop especially. there's no reason to think you dont have the best hand.

on the flop your bet is automatic after 4 betting. your reraise is good as well.

and slowing down on the turn makes sense as well. after he makes it 4 bets on the flop it's clear that you need to check on both streets. i think if he checks on the turn you should check the river as well so as to induce a bluff (or value bet) from a weaker hand.

im guessing button had 87 and just gave up on the river? i cant imagine what else he would be jamming so fast with on the flop. playing a pair like QQ or JJ this way would be senseless imo. K9 makes sense on the turn but not on the flop.

[J.R.]

KK would have taken down the pot.

[Kevin J]

I think your pre-flop play is reasonable provided that he'd sometimes 3-bet you with lesser hands due his superior position and your late position opening raise. 4-betting can provide both monetary and tactical value.

On the flop, it only makes sense to follow through with a bet and then re-raise when raised in an effort to maintain control AND punish a worse hand. His 4 bet might present a problem... But it might not...

With a set or top two, I would think a tough player (playing another tough player) would be inclined to just call your 3-bet and wait until a later street to raise. So a 4 bet here looks like it could actually be an indication of weakness. However, checking (and calling) the turn is only prudent.

I wouldn't worry about the missed bet on the river, since this was more than made up for by the excessive action both pre-flop and on the flop. I think you made a little more than AJo deserved here. IMO-

[Kevin J]

"And taking into account that he may have a pocket underpair, then KK is another possibity (I'll put him on QQ).

I think a pocket pair under queens is MUCH more likely than KK or QQ. I also think T9s, 98s, and 87s, are all possibilities. So I agree with you, but for a different reason. Against any of the latter hands, checking the river is more profitable against a tough opponent.

[Kevin J]

"You can safely bet the river here as you very well may have the best hand. If you get raised you can muck your hand and you lose the same amount you would have lost if you check-called."

PokerPrince-

With all due respect... I almost spit out my coffee in mid-sip. You're going to bet the river and... MUCK IF RAISED??!!! Certainly a tough player is capable of raising with the realization that the paired 6 eliminates HIS kicker problems. In fact, this is a perfectly normal raise to make (with a weak ace). Yeah, once in a while you'll run into a better hand. But against a player who can throw away an ace, I'd make it every time.

I just recently had a hand where I had to call a RE-raise in this exact situation, because he knew I could be playing the board and I knew he might be doing the same thing. Sure enough, we chopped.

[Kevin J]

I tend to have a more laid back approach (rather than put in this many bets without being able to beat AJo) when on meth.

[FishyWhale]

Let me see if I can track your thoughts.

Preflop you of course raise. Your opponent reraises, but that does not have to mean that he has got a premium hand himself, knowing that you could be stealing, so you 4-bet to find out if that is the case. Your opponent just calls, so unless he is tricky or just calling at 4-bets is the norm at $30/60, you can rule out AA and KK, most likely also AK and QQ.

The flop arrives with an ace, you bet, which doesn´t mean much, he raises, which doesn´t mean much either, you reraise (yes, I have the ace) he four bets (yes, I have it too). This is perhaps the most critical point in the hand so far because you could be dominated, but there was no 5-bet from him, so you probably can rule out AA and correctly decide to call getting 16.5-to-1 right now, but only needing better than 15-to-1 in case you are behind and drawing to three outs. If he has 99 you are of course drawing mighty dead, but that´s not too likely given how many ace-hands he could have.

Turn brings the K which doesn´t change anything if he had AK or AQ, but really sucks if he should have KK. But you also can rule out KK because there was no 5-bet preflop, but moreso because of the 4-bet on the flop. At this point knowledge of your opponents is critical: a) With what aces will he 3-bet preflop and b) would he also have called your preflop 4-bet with AK? (I think we can assume that he would just call with AQ) It would of course be best for you if he 3-bets with aces below AT and 5-bets with AK. I assume that he does 3-bet worse aces than AT, and the K also makes AK more unlikely, so again you call with pot odds of 8.75-to-1. And if he has got anything worse than a pair of aces he is just plain bad and not tough.

River: The six is good and bad because now you also split with AQ, but unfortunately also with AT and below. You check, preparing to call/enduce a bluff. When he checks, you know he doesn´t have 99 or AK and are surprised to scoop rather than split. Probably a rather unspectacular hand for you, and quite misplayed by your opponent (I´d most likely have folded to your 3-bet on the flop with a pocket pair below aces).

Why did you bother to post it? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif Only reason I can think about is to show someone that the information 4-bet preflop can be used to narrow down an opponents holdings postflop if that opponent doesn´t smooth-call the 4-bet with AA, KK, and perhaps a few other hands he could 5-bet with. Besides that, I honestly cannot find anything worth discussing in this post. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[mikelow]

I meant just QQ--sorry

I think 8-7 is a stretch.

[The Vegan]

Before the flop, your opponent can easily be raising with quite a few hands if he is a tough player and trying to narrow it to heads up. Your 4-bet isn't bad as you have a strong heads up hand and you want the initiative on the pot post-flop.
You hit your Ace on the flop, so while you could be fading a bigger ace, you are probably ahead here. You lead out with a bet and get raised. Ok, so he raises because there's an ace and you might be scared of an ace. But you have an ace so you re-raise. His re-raise here has to slow you down some and it does, best to look at the turn and see what develops. One thing to keep in mind though is that he re-raises the flop here and so that actually makes me think he doesn't have AK. With AA or AK I think he is likely to call your raise and then raise you on the turn. So at best here I think you are looking at AQ, with big pairs as other likely candidates. Depending on the player he may even have 87s.
The turn is a K which is not great, if it had come small, like a 2, it may be worth betting into him again on the turn. Check call on the turn is good since you don't want to throw your hand out at this point, you're going to the river.
The river pairs the board. I think this is the meat of the hand as you have to decide whether to bet or not. I've already decided you probably aren't against AA or AK. He could have KK or maybe 99. These are the only 2 real hands you are fading because and Ace splits the pot with you. If you bet, he will raise with KK or 99, and may raise with an Ace, knowing you will split if you call, but you may fold. The only realy draw he could have been on is 87, so any other hand will likely call you on the river.
I would say your river check isn't horrible, it all depends on what you personally would feel about a raise. A bet should definitely be considered though as I pointed out that you are likely ahead, or splitting the pot.

[CreamPuff]

If you get raised you can muck your hand and you lose the same amount.... Although i'm not sure mucking would be the correct choice ... in this scenario....so I don't have to explain everything to you.

The only thing that needs to be explained is your
indecisiveness.

[gaylord focker]

I think 87s is just as possible as QQ or KK in this situation. I cant see how a "solid" player would ever play a hand like this agaist MM. There are no draws out there other than 87, and after Mason 3 bets the flop, its pretty clear he has a pretty big peice. I think to play a big pocket pair that fast under the current circumstances is just follish. If The player really was strong like Mason origanally stated, I think its just as likely he decided to switch up his play by 3 betting 87 and decided to play his draw fast after the flop. If he did hold that hand, no point in betting the river because any decent holding would call.

[andyfox]

"I made it four bets, and my opponent called. (Remember, at The Bellagio the cap is five bets.)"

Rules question: Wouldn't your opponent have been able to raise regardless of the cap once it was down to the 2 of you?

I put him on A-Ts.

[andyfox]

Sorry, didn't see that the board paired on the river, so he didn't have an ace. J-J or 8-7s?

[Hobart]

From Mason's desciption of the button his play pre-flop does not jive with his bets on the flop and turn.

I'm sure he is familiar with Mason so stealing the pot would be tough. Like the other posts stated these are bad bets holding QQ,JJ or 87s. Mason needs to fill us in one descepency in play from a so called solid player.

[scottro]

I agree. i just can't see a solid player over-playing QQ, JJ or TT like this after the flop. Thus, I'd have to put him on 87, AK or possibly even AQ. Most likely, I'd put him on AK. His play was very consistant with this holding, 4-betting pre-flop, aggressive on the flop, betting the turn and even his check on the river, possibly putting MM on A6 or 66, initially on a steal and looking for a check-raise on the river. Not too likely considering the MM's play on the flop, but a definite possibility. I think MM over-played the hand. Of course, I don't play at this limit, so what do I know?

77,
scottro

[Shawn Keller]

I agree with Creampuff here, additionally I would almost never fourbet it preflop in that position, although it certainly may have been right for mason to do that at that time, also if I did fourbet it preflop I think when he raised me on the flop I would have gone into call down mode, because its just headsup and I'm not too afraid of a freecard and I think a threebet on the flop would just scare him off a pocketpair on the turn.

Shawn Keller

[bad beetz]

allot of people seem to like 87s for a hand read. I don't think the button would three bet a LP raiser with 87s.

[gaylord focker]

I agree, it doesnt make sense. My problem was that 87 seemed to make as much, or more sense than a big pair given the situation and the way the hand played out on and after the flop. I think its hard to put any solid player on a hand that cannot take at least half the pot here.

[Dynasty]

allot of people seem to like 87s for a hand read. I don't think the button would three bet a LP raiser with 87s.

Lots of aggressive players will 3-bet a steal raise with 87s.

[Nick]

What hand can this guy hold that he isn't misplaying, IF, he knows who you are which I assume he does from your intro...

Or unless, you fold after the flop more often than one would beleive from your posts.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

I agree with you analysis of the hand except that some more sophisticated players can reverse themselves and play the ace fast on the flop figuring that they will see it as you describe. Because of this it makes the lead on the river difficult.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

A side question is that if you held aces or kings, given that you would have position throughout the hand, are you better off not capping?

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

Another point is that if he has a hand like QQ and I bet, he might just fold. But if I check, he might make a desperation bluff.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi KJ:

I think you have this right. You need to be very sure to fold on the river if you bet and are raised.

MM

[brad]

i wonder if you realize how much money youve made me (us) just off this concept?

low limiters are calling stations as everyone knows, but at higher limits players are so aggressive i would almost say check calling the river is the default play heads up.

[bad beetz]

this is why I shouldn't be in the "mid/high" stakes section. I have never seen this.

[Dynasty]

About half a year ago, one of Mason's articles in Card Player reccomending 3-betting with 98s (or T9s?) from the small blind against a button steal raise. I posted a hand using this idea (I may have had 87s) and it created an interesting discussion.

[Mason Malmuth]

I agree with your comments. I'm against a player who will recognize that I have raised from a steal position and thus will expand his range of hands to reraise. Now by four betting, I may force him to fold if he doesn't hit the flop.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

"when the K comes on the turn you go into check call mode."

The four bets on the flop plus his position puts me in check call mode, not the king.

On the river, if a queen comes it makes it tougher to call, but the pot is very big.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

Given the way the hand was played before the flop, his raise on the flop could mean a very big hand or it could be a raise for information. If it's the latter, it becomes correct to reraise.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

You sure wrote a lot for someone who can't find anything worth talking about.

One point that you missed is that if I have caught my opponent with a marginal hand, and neither of us flops anything, my four bet preflop might make him fold on the flop.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

There's a point that I believe most of you missed. I described a game with several very good players and several unknown players. The good players all knew each other and the unknown players were probably unknown to everyone. So what does this mean?

It means that you should concentrate your aggression on the unknown players. Another way of saying this is that the good players should take turns against the unknown players.

Of course poker isn't always this simple, but I suspect my opponent didn't think in these terms. If he did, he should have given me much less action.

Best wishes and thanks to all for commenting.

Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Given the way the hand is played, specifically my taking it to four bets, it looks like I could have a big pair, and that pair can be less than aces. So his initial flop raise might make me think he has aces and now I could get off of kings. My reraise confirms that I have an ace (and perhaps two of them). His going to four bets might be an attempt to buy a free card. So if this was his thinking, his play is not necessarily so bad.

So let's assume he want a free card. With the king hitting, it might make him think I'm a little more likely to fold, so he bets again.

Now I'm not saying that this is good play, but it might explain in a rational way why he played the hand as fast as he did.

best wishes,
Mason

[FishyWhale]

[Pokerguy]

I was curious why you 4 bet with AJ off? Is this a standard play that you make? My guess is you'll say because he is a good player that you need to do this sometimes to throw him off so he doesnt always know what you have when you 4 bet. How often wil you make a play like this?