Tournamnet play: do you want people to chase fluhses?

[1C5]

Or do you want to bet more than enough to fold to get them to fold?

In TOP, it talks about you wanting people to chase flushes when they don't have the proper odds to but do you want this in a Party SnG structure or do you want them to fold and take the pot now?

Example...

I think villian is on a flush draw here (Party 33).

How much do I bet and why?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t430)
Hero (t700)
UTG (t825)
UTG+1 (t1720)
MP1 (t640)
MP2 (t815)
CO (t2215)
Button (t655)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (t105) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t75</font>, UTG calls t75, UTG+1 calls t75.

Turn: (t330) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets ?

[Maulik]

when i put someone on a flush draw I'll push t360 is a lot of chips!

[JP Rocks]

Is this a pot odds question, or is it deeper than that?

[Maulik]

just take the pot immediately

[BradleyT]

Vs. Flush
Holdem Hi: 44 enumerated boards containing Qs 4s Jd 6h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6c Qh 36 81.82 8 18.18 0 0.00 0.818
As 7s 8 18.18 36 81.82 0 0.00 0.182

Vs. KJ
Holdem Hi: 44 enumerated boards containing Qs 4s Jd 6h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6c Qh 39 88.64 5 11.36 0 0.00 0.886
Jc Kh 5 11.36 39 88.64 0 0.00 0.114


Eh, that looks better than the coinflips that are so often advocated on this board.

[NYCNative]

If you make a pot-size bet, it makes it unprofitable for them to chase, I believe. This does not mean that some people won't chase anyway but you want to make it so they made a mistake doing so and got lucky. Never take away this advantage.

If the poker gods are being especially righteous, villain chases and hit the nut flush with the 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif on the river. If they're gonna chase in an unprofitable situation, they're conna pay off your boat big time.

[beeyjay]

push. you want that pot right there.

[DonCaspero]

You want him to draw here. That way you are either back in contention or ready to play a new tournament. Make it 200-250. That makes it incorrect to draw, and if you pretty sure of a flush draw, you can still get away with T500 left if it hits the river.

[jeffraider]

This is something I've been considering a lot recently, especially after reading a lot of very confusing opinions in the "Should I slowplay my KK" thread where many people advocted pushing to win the pot right there rather than attempt to milk chips out of the opponent.

I don't love your example because your hand is weak and I don't think it's so easy to simply put him on a flush draw. Let's say for a better example though, same stack sizes and blinds, and you've got KQ and you can see his cards and his cards are 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Now what do people do?

If I could see his card and know for a fact that he had only 9 outs against me, I'd be happy to bet half the pot here, have him make a bad call, and win an extra 150 chips 80% of the time. 20% of the time he his his flush, and I'm down to 445 and fold. So four times out of five here my stack is now 1075 and one time out of five I'm at 445.

Mind you in real life I can't SEE his cards, so half the pot (giving him 3:1 to call) may not be a large enough bet to get him to make a significant error, because if his hand as the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif he has more outs, and if he's got the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif he's got even more outs. His nightmare hand for me if he's got two spades is A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and that means to get him to make a nice big mistake I'd need to bet more than the size of the pot which means a push anyways.

I feel like I'm rambling on, but my view on this is that if I know for a fact I can let my opponent make a clear mistake that is profitable for me the majority of the time then I'll do it, but since most of the time no situation is so clear cut, I'll err on the side of forcing the issue and getting the chips right away rather than risk it.

[viennagreen]

i think that in tournament play in general, you would rather win the pot or charge a lot for the draw if it means that you will be crippled if they hit their draw (or if you would be unable to get away from your hand)--- in SNGs, you usually don't have enough chips to fool around with to let them draw.

i think it's different in cash play--- as long as you don't pay them off if they hit.

[lorinda]

In the scenario you give, I bet an amount that means he is correct to call with two cards to come, but should fold with one card to come, so a 2/3 the pot or so.

I then push if he misses the turn, and he can't call.

This way he called on the flop for a near pot sized bet with the equivalent of only one card to come.

Lori

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
In the scenario you give, I bet an amount that means he is correct to call with two cards to come, but should fold with one card to come, so a 2/3 the pot or so.

I then push if he misses the turn, and he can't call.

This way he called on the flop for a near pot sized bet with the equivalent of only one card to come.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, do I ever love that idea!! Why not bet the full size of the pot on the flop though?

[lorinda]

Why not bet the full size of the pot on the flop though?

I tend to bet about 90% of it, but was too tired to do the math and didn't fancy a nit contest /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lori

[flo]

What if he isn't on a flush draw and still bets a /images/graemlins/spade.gif? 80% is too high, i think. I'd just push and take the pot, because i want to increase my stack.
I may have to clue though /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[shejk]

Since this isn't a headsup confrontation you need to consider that even if you bet the pot, if utg calls utg+1 will be getting 2-1 for his money. When I give someone 2-1, I want to be decently sure that I'm not giving them implied on top of that.

I think this looks like a push, but with solid reads it can be played better.