How much do I lose by ignoring tells?

[2ndGoat]

The thread below got me thinking. The one time I played in a B&M, I didn't try to study anyone's mannerisms very closely. I'm mainly an online player... our tells are "either I can't decide, or I'm on a 56k." Except that one time in AC, all the live games I play are with regulars, where I've either got a tell or I don't. I've picked up tells before. I don't think I'm missing the mega-obvious ones, but its the subtle ones- not only am I not looking closely enough, but I don't think I have the skill developed enough to put stock in it for now. I feel like i'd get it backwards too often. Even if I do grab something, I'm hesistant to use it until I've seen it a bunch from that guy.

So what do you think? How much of a leak is this? I'm still trying to read hands- both by the hands they'd open with in the given situation and their play to that point, just not really supplementing it with visual/auditory information as much as a lot of you folks seem to.

Mind you, I'm only playing 2/4 and 3/6 games. I understand that in higher games where the skill differential may be smaller that tells and psychology may play a bigger role.

2ndGoat

[glen]

I believe Mike Caro stated the highly contested viewpoint that it's, like, 2BB per hour, but it's not hard to see that in hold'em, at least, this is way off. I think Mason said in a 10-20 game game it would equate to a few dollars an hour. If I'm off on this, i'm sure I'll be corrected tomorrow, but since you're up at this hour as well, I thought i'd start. . . It makes sense though if you think about it. If you get involved in about 7 pots an hour, how many times are you going to be able to benefit from tells. On the other hand, one of the most satisfying experiences in poker is when one is able to use a tell to win a big pot which they wouldn't have otherwise. Sometimes tells get one an extra bet on the river, for example, but sometimes a tell can win you twenty. . . this can be significant in the long term. . .

[bernie]

this is a very common problem with online players. not only do they have trouble finding tells, but concealing them also. make that face to a computer screen, no one sees it. do it at a table, and observant players will love it. i know i do.

the more you learn about tells, the more youll be aware of ones you might be giving off. so it benefits both ways. reading and conealing. you may throw a bet in and think 'damn! i threw that too quick' then look around hoping no one caught it. i know, because ive done it. and when youre thinking this way, youre also aware of other players speeds/rythyms of the game....subtle tells

i didnt really dive into tell play until i was confident with how i played the hands regardless of tells. id still adjust if one was obvious...but to me, it was an expansion of playing.

tells also incorporate the rythym and flow of the game. not just a guy twitching off his chair. a feel for the game is also conducive (that a word?) to subtle tells. if someone makes a bet, that just doesnt seem normal with the flow of the game, something's up...and it doesnt always mean fold, or call

you are right to confirm it with a pattern before reacting. that's a very key part. also, keep your ears open. many things players say, even in conversation, will tell you a little how they play hands. poker is a very personal game, and you have to play ALOT to become deadened enough to not let emotion creep into your thoughts when playing.

one thing this really opened up for me was how to watch/listen during hands im not involved in. which i think is a much neglected skill in itself. a couple times the players next to me commented on how much i paid attention in hands i wasnt involved in. in fact, anywhere i go away from a card table, in the back of my mind, im sizing someone up as to how they would play cards. sometimes, ill be more deliberate about this exercise, for practice, but youll really see that how someone reacts to certain things, how they may react to certain plays/hands at the table. kind of like what they say about golfing. if you go 18 with someone, youll see how they handle all different types of situations.

but, if youve played with the same guys for about an hour or so, you should have the feel of the table, and a good line on how they all play. so you wont have to watch as intently. then its a matter of adjusting/watching a new guy if one shows up. the better you get, the sooner youll get a read on the table. an hour is actually quite awhile, usually it should take about 15mins if the players are typical...

AND if you see the same regulars in a later session, youll know basically they way they play...but they can change a little too. but the adjustment for them is easy, because you know what their normal comfort zone is and what theyre capable of. they usually dont stray too far away from their normal, predictable pattern.

there was a time when majorkong and me agreed that the normal passive. bad players at the room all of a sudden got a little aggressive. when one of my usual customers bet his draw, it really took me back a bit....this from a guy who hardly bet unless he had at least top pair. so they do change at times. and after awhile, those players fell back into their old patterns again...but you see, it was a minor adjustment to him, since you know his foundation of plays...and once you know those, the tells are easier to spot...

hope im not ramblin'

just some ideas..

b

ps...i did a response to someones post about what they thought was a wild play for them. i responded that by how the thread progressed, i could see how they played more hands than just the one presented. reading threads is like hearing table coaches discussing hands at the table. they tell you how theyd play a hand, and why. which also gives off clues to how in depth their understanding of the game is.
another way of using threads....act like youre listening at a table, and how youd adjust to the players responding...

DAMN!!! im ramblin again.... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

(being dragged away...) /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

wait...i got more.... /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

cmon!..... /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

(scuffle, scuffle)

mffff!!!! /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

bonk!

$P

[2ndGoat]

I suppose that all makes sense.

Playing online, I watch tables like a hawk. I've got a pretty sizeable player database with people's starting hands, bluffing & value betting habits, etc. I try to do that live too, but I think I just need to add a "tells" column to what I keep in my head during a game.

I guess it just comes down to time. I know Caro's classic tells and what not... I imagine there's not much I can do but keep playing and keep watching. I'll probably get some of the poker psychology books eventually, which would help marginally (?) with all this, but i've got a few others on my list first.

2ndGoat