How's my line with Queens?

[Leaky Game]

How's my pf raise into a 2 raisers? The way I see it, I needed to continuation bet on the flop, should I have fired again at the turn? Don't see that I could given the flop. Questionable pf raise?

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($7.40)
UTG ($24.25)
UTG+1 ($39.55)
UTG+2 ($16.45)
MP1 ($38.65)
MP2 ($26.90)
MP3 ($59.80)
Hero ($49.25)
Button ($31.25)
SB ($31.10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $4.5</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $5.50.

Flop: ($21.75) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, UTG+1 calls $14.

Turn: ($49.75) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($49.75) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $49.75

[kongo_totte]

I call and see a flop against a re-raise, even though the first raise was a weak one. Since you 3-raised, I play it like you did post flop.

[piki]

Im not sure why you check down this hand after the flop betting. I dont see him having and draws, and he is going to raise you if he has a set. You need to move the K small kicker off of the pot or you have the better pair.

[Leaky Game]

He showed big slick. I don't think betting would have got him off that, do you?

[kongo_totte]

It depends. I put him on A K aswell, fearing A A (which you are representing). With a read that he might fold A K, I might try to blow him off. Most of the times though, I wouldn´t.

[piki]

[ QUOTE ]
He showed big slick. I don't think betting would have got him off that, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]
He showed TPTK and didnt bet the turn or the river? The only hand he is afraid of is AA or KK. His checking down indicates that is what he put you on as you wouldnt raise PreFlop with any two pair or set. There is no draw on the flop. If he is a calling station, check it down and he loses money on his monster hand.

Your oponent has (should have) learned from you that if yout dont get a fold with flop bet, you wont bet underpairs on the turn or river.

You have learned from you oponent that he is afraid of his very strong non-NUTS hands.

JAA

[Finite_Risk]

One of the problems with this hand at the river is that neither of you has much stack left at this point. I can't see him twice checking anything but Big Slick....but you don't have enough left (about half the pot?) to push him out, esp cuz he has less than you do.

He has about 16 left, if you put him all in, there is 65 in the pot...not sure I fold AK getting 4/1 at this point.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
He showed big slick. I don't think betting would have got him off that, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he plays it this slow, you might of. But in order to do so you would have to make a move, that under any normal circumstances is flat out absurd.

I think you could of made a medium bet for value on the river, regardless of this outcome.

[Leaky Game]

Admitting to the donk that I am. Can someone explain a value bet when you think you're behind?

I had him on AK since he reraised the small UTG raised and only called my raise. Then he stayed on my flop bet representing at least a pair of Kings. At that point, I didn't think there was a way I could push him off it. But I've been on a bit of a tailspin lately so my tightness might have taken over.

[piki]

[ QUOTE ]
Admitting to the donk that I am. Can someone explain a value bet when you think you're behind?

I had him on AK since he reraised the small UTG raised and only called my raise. Then he stayed on my flop bet representing at least a pair of Kings. At that point, I didn't think there was a way I could push him off it. But I've been on a bit of a tailspin lately so my tightness might have taken over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since Im a donk too, we will get a long.

If the guy is somewhat knowledgable about this game, he knows you might be looking to CR on the turn. His check there shows a very vulnerable hand in my mind. If he knows the purpose of a value bet (IMO to bet as much as you think your opponent will call and not fold because you have him beat), if you spend your timer on the and bet out a little less than his stack, he may sense you are trying to suck him out and induce a fold.

Though if you know he is a rock, check it down. I think you would have called a few value bets, so he lost out. Being in EP I find I need to know what my opponent thinks of his hand quick.

JAA

[Leaky Game]

Makes sense, thanks.

At this level I see all kinds of people staying in with crap (ie, tp awful kicker, middle pp, etc) when they long since should have folded so it would be tough for me to think a guy was good enough to fold to a value bet. I could very well be wrong on this though.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
Admitting to the donk that I am. Can someone explain a value bet when you think you're behind?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct, a bet on the river would have been foolish and Alex is just wrong. Since you (correctly) checked behind on the turn, even a bad king is going to call you down. The ONLY hand I can put the villain on that might call you and lose is JJ. Any other hand that you beat will just fold, but all hands that beat you will call. This is the definition of a terrible river bet.

I think you played this fine on every street. If I had to make a change, I might have raised by a little more preflop, but your raise was on the low edge of OK, IMHO.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Weird hand. I don't like preflop. Just call, you're not far ahead if you're ahead at all. Flop is fine, but I might even bet smaller. The only danger to betting small is if he a)has a draw - which he doesnt or b)will read it as weakness and raise with a worse hand - but you have AA/KK most likely and he knows you aren't getting off of either so it just looks like a milking bet. If he calls you, you are done with the hand. You're not moving him off of AK/AA/KK and those are the only hands you're behind.

[jonnyUCB]

I always have been taught to RR with queens preflop and have never changed it though I see a lot of people advocating flat-calling a raise OOP or in position. Do you care to elaborate more on why one should make this play?

[kongo_totte]

This is a question of whether a min.raise is to be considered a raise or not. If it is, you made a 3-raise. I also re-raise queens (usually) but rarely 3-raise them.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I always have been taught to RR with queens preflop and have never changed it though I see a lot of people advocating flat-calling a raise OOP or in position. Do you care to elaborate more on why one should make this play?

[/ QUOTE ]
It really depends. I am more likely to re-raise a late position raise than an early position raise. I am more likely to re-raise heads up than multi-way. I am more likely to re-raise a passive postflop player than an aggressive one. I am more likely to re-raise if I have a LAG image than if I have a TAG one.

In this case, however, even if you don't count the first raise as a raise because it is a min-raise (although I would still be a bit nervous because some people min-raise with AA/KK) I still think it shows more strength when someone re-raises a min-raise than when they just raise against limpers. Therefore, the re-raiser's hand range is probably something along the lines of AA-TT/AKs-AQs/AKo unless you have a read that he re-raises lighter than that. Against that hand range, you definitely don't want to re-re-raise. And then there is the possibility of being against a monster from the min-raiser. And you are pretty close to PCed once you re-re-raise and bet the flop, so I particularly don't like it with these stack sizes. Give everyone another 100BB and then I like it better (but still don't like it).