Call or Fold?

[AZK]

6-7 handed 5/10 prima. I have 2k, I have been pushing people around and playing pretty loose and pretty aggressive. I limp UTG with KTo (no comments about this please), 2 other limpers, maybe a blind or two. Villain sat back down after I busted him and he took an hour break, since then, he has only shown down AA preflop for 800 pot. At this point (7 orbits or so) he had been playin pretty tight.

Flop comes QJ9 all hearts, i have the T hearts

I lead for 20, short stack (200) makes it 40, villain makes it 160. I could care less about the shortstack, but villain has 1200 behind. Call or Fold?

[kagame]

fold villain has the nuts

or go all in, a set will call you

min raise with this utg preflop

anything else you want me to say?

[Rotating Rabbit]

Personally I dont know how you can even consider folding, he cant put you on a hand. Think there's an argument for reraising (about a third of the deck stops the action on the turn) and QJ, 99 might pay more on the flop against you. I think call though, and prepare to piss him off.

[Garland]

Preflop: no comment

Flop: I hate the $20 lead into a $45 ($50?) pot. This makes the information you get from subsequent actions impure as your bet is so weak. I would definitely bet the pot.

This is tough since the initial bet was so weak, but I would have to lay this down. There's been a show of strength by the short-stack, and although villian may not respect you, he still has to contend with the fact short-stack is interested in the pot. This massive reraise has a flush written all over it, and I would hate to get it in drawing to only two outs. Let's examine the possibilities:

(a) Best case: he has a set or two pair. But will even he get it in with those hands? I get the impression he is on nut peddle mode the way you describe him. If he happens to get it in with a set, he still has about 1/3 pot equity.

(b) Another good or bad case: He has KJ. You freeroll him, or if he has K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, he freerolls you.

(c) Bad case: He has baby hearts and you're drawing to 7 outs.

(d) Worst case: He has the A or K high /images/graemlins/heart.gif flush and you're drawing to one or two outs.

If both short-stack and villian are sane, you are most likely beaten somewhere. Save your money for a different time.

Garland

[Rotating Rabbit]

Look this is one of those 2+2 situations where somebody posts a hand that they probably lost with a huge holding, and everyone tries to convince themselves its a fold. Fact is nobody should fold this, and certainly not in 30 seconds!

Garland- you're being way too pessimistic. There are roughly 12 flushes, of which only about a third would reraise this strongly. There are also over 12 2pair+/set hands. You think villian could be limping with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ?! please. How else would villian play AQo here, what about KQ? Nobody has shown any interest in the pot ! UTG lag has min bet into 4 players 'please dont raise my draw ps im drunk', and then a short stack has min raised! 'hey, wow, i got a draw too!'- tptk is good a lot of the time. Villian has NO IDEA what hero has, he ISNT expecting a call.

If hero calls, and small stack pushes, the pot will be 600+ by the turn, and villian still has NO IDEA what hero has, but will have no choice but to bet a blank since hero could be calling a draw on pot odds boosted by the bonus of shortie's stack on the flop. Check raise all in.

[jrforman]

Anyone think villain is solely trying to isloate short stack here? If so, like rabbit said, there is a wide range of hands villain is doing this with...That being the case, whats so wrong with calling the flop and proceeding with caution on the turn? Anyone like this line or is the pot too big?

[AZK]

So, I was really torn between this hand, and the table was soo good with two fish that also had about 2k. I could see calling the 120 but by then the pot is huge on the turn, and I wll likely face a near-pot sized bet by villain whether he has it or not. At this point I either put him on a straight/set or baby flush. I doubt he is doing this with the lone ace, because of the shortstack, but eitherway there are a ton of cards I don't want to see on the river and I will likely see his hand cause of the short stack. I was also influenced by a friend who happened to be sitting next to me when this went down. He was so adamant about laying this down and moving on that I actually just folded. Short stack had a set, villain had T8o for the under. I kicked my friend out of the house.

[the 9]

Was this reddon?

way2b /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Reddon is trying to get you to call the 160 and then the SS moves in (multidata?) and then he cn re-raise you.
He would put you on as little as A /images/graemlins/heart.gif so I wouldn't mind getting all in on the flop with him.
The AA hand he had I raised UTG+1 I think to $50-60, 2 calls from shortys, he moved in for $900 on the button, I mucked.

I'm interested as to what you thought of me at that table, I thought I played one big pot badly (AK) and I couldnt get away from the flopped Q high flush when the idiot slowrolled me.
Generally I dont think there are many good plyrs there, although I dont remember playing a single pot over $50 with you in 3 hrs.

[AZK]

Ha no way. I didn't know you posted here or new about these forums. Yeah, I don't remember playing many pots with you, if any, this was against reddon. They kept making fun of you saying how they were going to keep taking your stack but you didn't seem that crazy/bad to me, you seemed to just be playing normal. The Q high flopped flush to his ace was a difficult hand to get away from since he was playing like an idiot. Did you see him raise me on the river when I hit my straight, he was a moron. I probably would have proceeded more cautiously...anyway, check your PMs...

[Rotating Rabbit]

[ QUOTE ]

Reddon is trying to get you to call the 160 and then the SS moves in (multidata?) and then he cn re-raise you.

[/ QUOTE ]

...shortie only has 200

[sMethod]

When players make large over bets to people making smalls bet incomparision to the size of the pot they are trying to protect something. This is obvious! IF he had floped a flush why would be trying to shut every body out with a made hand. This is a cash game folks not a tournament you dont need to be folding the nut straight to an over bet. If it was me and I was playing in a live game I would call the bet and focus on my opponents gestures after that. If I was online I might do the same or depending on my opponent make a smallish raise and see how he responds. Without reading the results I put him on a set, 2 pair,or a straight. Baby flush is the least likely of all the hands IT IS A POSSIBILTY but we are trying to make the best possible decisions for the LONG RUN people. Folding this hand is a mistake period. /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[the 9]

Yeh they tried to tilt me after I played a hand quite badly but I didn't take too much notice, after saying he was going to bust he left, so I didn't stick around after.

The reason I moved in with Q high was the range of smaller flushes he could easily have had - this time he just happened to flop the A high /images/graemlins/smile.gif He had a bit of a thing for you as well, trying to tilt you but all in all it was a fun table.

In respect to my previous post, I haven't checked the hand history but I would assume Villain raised to just under what the shorty had - this was also something I noticed you dont do AZK and I think this is somewhere you could be missing value in re-raising pf and creating a sidepot with the best hand.

He could have a wide range of hands (IMO the most likely a set then a straight or small flush) but I wouldn't put him on the flopped nut flush because he would play it slower to make sure AZK was involved.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
depending on my opponent make a smallish raise and see how he responds.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hate a smallish raise here, especially since you think Villian has a set or two pair. This also gives Villian the chance to blow you off the best hand with something like a pair with the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[Tony.T]

Easy call IMO

Call and checkraise a blank turn

If he has the nuts, who cares? Just go, "re buy please"

Don´t know who your opponent is but the most likely
flushes he could have is obviously the A high flush
or a small flush you got outs to beat. Anyway, they are
going to show you two pair, A /images/graemlins/heart.gif+pair/T or a set way more often


Don´t be a nutpeddler, that is what u americanos call it right? Put your chips in there, action action please!


Good luck!


Tony M

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
Short stack had a set, villain had T8o for the under. I kicked my friend out of the house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't be results oriented. That was about the best case scenario with two strong opponents. Your position is weak and you need to make a reraise/fold decision on the flop. You reraise and only a flush calls, but villian will lay down a better hand. I don't like calling the flop, and be forced to make another big bet decision on the turn when a blank comes.

This isn't nutpeddling; this is common sense. Two opponents have shown strength stronger than a single pair on a monotone board; don't they need to worry about a flush too? This decision changes dramatically if short-stack isn't in there.

But again, I would lead the pot and not the wimpy $20 which does nothing to protect your hand anyways.

Garland