worthless kings

[MattC]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

is waiting for the turn to see what develops and possibly check raise the field good? what about the crying call?

[JDErickson]

NO

Bet the damn flop

[Klepton]

this is very weak tight

bet the flop, and 3-bet if raised

if capped, then you can slow down

[Yobz]

I almost cried when I saw that flop check

[KDawgCometh]

okay, now that I'm done puking from that weak tight bullsh <font color="yellow"> </font> it on the flop, all I can say is bet that flop out and threebet if raised. The hand plays much much differently from there

[MattC]

my idea was that the pot is already huge, im not gonna make anyone fold, and there is a straight flush draw out there. So i was gonna wait for the turn to see if the turn card be safe then check raise the field to give the drawers bad odds on drawing. I think i have very little equity in this pot, almost any card on the turn can beat me, an ace a heart any card that adds to the straight and who knows what else, AND i have no king of hearts in my hand.

does no one agree with this thinking? ive read a whole section on it in both sshe and hefap on where one sometimes waits for the turn before taking any action and the situations described were similar to this hand here, why does it not apply here, where am i going wrong? i do not understand.

[mdeck]

I think the point is that while the pot may be large, the odds of anyone in the field flopping a straight are very small and odds are you have the best hand at this current point in time. The LAST thing you want to do is give anyone a free card, and the bet/3bet flop line not only defines your position better, but also is because of your pot equity. If the field is going to draw, make them pay for it.

[ArturiusX]

Why not bet because of pot equity?

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost cried when I saw that flop check

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually threw up in my mouth a little.

BET THE FLOP.

[Matt Jenko]

because you raised pf, it would make sense to lead on the flop here. I understand what you are saying with waiting for the turn, but you do have a good hand and to give free cards here would be a disaster. Hopefully someone will raise and you can 3 bet. Get some chips in whilst you have the best hand and worry about the turn when it comes. It is really not a good one for you but as you are in control of the betting, you will have a better understanding of where you stand.

[Matt Jenko]

to be of any use to op, explain your reasoning and not just your reaction to his move /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Superfoot]

either bet the flop or go for a checkraise on the flop. I might lean towards check raising here because the field is huge and I don't think 1 bet is gonna make anyone fold, so hopefully someone in middle or late position will bet, then you can raise it and make the others face 2 bets

edit: unfortunately the bet comes from the BB

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
...there is a straight flush draw out there. So i was gonna wait for the turn to see if the turn card be safe then check raise the field to give the drawers bad odds on drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be more concerned about giving a free card to the field than charging them 2 double sized bets.

Stu

[Emoney]

[ QUOTE ]
either bet the flop or go for a checkraise on the flop. I might lean towards check raising here because the field is huge and I don't think 1 bet is gonna make anyone fold, so hopefully someone in middle or late position will bet, then you can raise it and make the others face 2 bets

edit: unfortunately the bet comes from the BB

[/ QUOTE ]

no one with a draw is going away for 2 bets.

[Bigdaddydvo]

If this represents a typical hand of you playing 3/6, I suggest you move down to the Micros for a while.

[pshabi]

Okay, if capped you can slow down.

But, can you fold, or are you saying call down?

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
does no one agree with this thinking? ive read a whole section on it in both sshe and hefap on where one sometimes waits for the turn before taking any action and the situations described were similar to this hand here, why does it not apply here, where am i going wrong? i do not understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't read SSHE or HEFAP in a while, but I believe those examples would have involved hands in which u knew where to expect a bet from and u could actually protect your hand by waiting until the turn to raise. Here, u have no idea where a flop or turn bet will come from. How can u face the field with a double bet when u don't know where a bet will come from? Also, there's not a whole lot u can protect against. a gutshot on the turn is about it. FF will call till the river and OESD are calling till the river. You're BETTING FOR VALUE here. Also, there's not a whole lot u can protect against and u're missing tons of value by not betting this flop.

[Bill C]

[ QUOTE ]
is waiting for the turn to see what develops and possibly check raise the field good? what about the crying call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Izmet Fekali (who I can't seem to find anymore) said it best: "The big cards dominate early in the hand, but are tortured late by the little cards." This is, in part, an expression of Morton's Theorum (Don't ask me to explain it.)

You almost certainly have the best hand pre-flop, and very likely, your hand is still better than any ONE of your 6 opponents on the flop. But in aggregate, the 6 of them have the odds to draw on you. Plus, you really couldn't face a worse board, with straight and flush draws out, plus touching cards. You have to bet here, not just for value, but more importantly to KO as many as possible of your opponenets, and get them out of this hand. And even with that, it may be too late; someone could already have the straight, as 9-10 is a pretty common hand for limpers. I think you should C/R the flop and make every effort to get to the cap. Then see what the turn brings, and bet out on the turn, folding to a raise. The turn and river couldn't have been worse for you.

The real point of your hand is you don't want to slow-play a big pair, you need to play it very aggressively. And a big pair is a good holding but it will get beat a lot, so don't be too surprised when it does.

Hang in...

bc

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is waiting for the turn to see what develops and possibly check raise the field good? what about the crying call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Izmet Fekali (who I can't seem to find anymore) said it best: "The big cards dominate early in the hand, but are tortured late by the little cards." This is, in part, an expression of Morton's Theorum (Don't ask me to explain it.)

You almost certainly have the best hand pre-flop, and very likely, your hand is still better than any ONE of your 6 opponents on the flop. But in aggregate, the 6 of them have the odds to draw on you. Plus, you really couldn't face a worse board, with straight and flush draws out, plus touching cards. You have to bet here, not just for value, but more importantly to KO as many as possible of your opponenets, and get them out of this hand. And even with that, it may be too late; someone could already have the straight, as 9-10 is a pretty common hand for limpers. I think you should C/R the flop and make every effort to get to the cap. Then see what the turn brings, and bet out on the turn, folding to a raise. The turn and river couldn't have been worse for you.

The real point of your hand is you don't want to slow-play a big pair, you need to play it very aggressively. And a big pair is a good holding but it will get beat a lot, so don't be too surprised when it does.

Hang in...

bc

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Izmet Fekali (who I can't seem to find anymore)....


[/ QUOTE ]

Try this link. (http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/Home)

That link reminds me of the good o days when this forum was populated by independent thinkers.

Stu

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
my idea was that the pot is already huge, im not gonna make anyone fold, and there is a straight flush draw out there. So i was gonna wait for the turn to see if the turn card be safe then check raise the field to give the drawers bad odds on drawing. I think i have very little equity in this pot, almost any card on the turn can beat me, an ace a heart any card that adds to the straight and who knows what else, AND i have no king of hearts in my hand.

does no one agree with this thinking? ive read a whole section on it in both sshe and hefap on where one sometimes waits for the turn before taking any action and the situations described were similar to this hand here, why does it not apply here, where am i going wrong? i do not understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO!!! SSHE does NOT say this. The situation in SSHE is quite a bit different from this one. It talks about waiting til the turn to RAISE, not to bet out. Here, you're risking a free card to everyone in the hand. In SSHE, there's already a bet in front of you. Get some value out of your hand on this. If you're going to play like this, then open fold the turn.

[Solid_p]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my idea was that the pot is already huge, im not gonna make anyone fold, and there is a straight flush draw out there. So i was gonna wait for the turn to see if the turn card be safe then check raise the field to give the drawers bad odds on drawing. I think i have very little equity in this pot, almost any card on the turn can beat me, an ace a heart any card that adds to the straight and who knows what else, AND i have no king of hearts in my hand.

does no one agree with this thinking? ive read a whole section on it in both sshe and hefap on where one sometimes waits for the turn before taking any action and the situations described were similar to this hand here, why does it not apply here, where am i going wrong? i do not understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO!!! SSHE does NOT say this. The situation in SSHE is quite a bit different from this one. It talks about waiting til the turn to RAISE, not to bet out. Here, you're risking a free card to everyone in the hand. In SSHE, there's already a bet in front of you. Get some value out of your hand on this. If you're going to play like this, then open fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, in SSHE the example is for a pair of tens where lots of overcards can come and where a safe turn card gives you a much higher pot equity edge. With AA or KK though, you should raise the flop for value!

[Bill C]

Thanks Stu! I'll enjoy having his site.
Do you have anything on Abdul Jalib?

bill

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have anything on Abdul Jalib?

[/ QUOTE ]

He used to have his stuff at www.posev.com (http://www.posev.com) but its not up any more. What a shame.


Stu

[MattC]

thanks guys, I shall never do this mistake again :&gt;.