Was this a good stop and go with AJ?

[fluorescenthippo]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t2145)
BB (t2455)
UTG (t2090)
Button (t1310)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t700</font>, Hero calls t550, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t1700) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1445 (All-In)</font>, Button calls t610 (All-In).

Turn: (t3755) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t3755) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3755

Villian was pretty loose so i put him on Ax,Kx,mid PP, maybe even Q9+. I figured a stop and go instead of a push would be more EV against the range of hands i put him on.

[shejk]

I like it, but please state what your range for him is that you mentioned.

[DasLeben]

Button is pot-committed with his preflop raise. He's not going to lay down to a push on the flop (and it'd be correct for him to call anyways). I'd push preflop.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does that accomplish that a stop n go doesn't?

If you decide to play AJ here....you can either push and then call/push. I'm not sure how pushing straightaway is better. This is similar to that other thread except you *will* have some FE post-flop (especially on 'scary' boards).

There is only one scenario I can imagine where you want to push pre-flop - if you're almost sure his range is close to exclusively A2-AT and don't want to give him a chance to fold.

Yugoslav

[Karak567]

At a low buy-in I would say this is an easy PF push because people like to call with suited connectors a LOT and hit their trash and call down your stop and go, where you could just take it down PF.

I don't really like the stop and go on the bubble when I can just shove my stack in for big blinds.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
At a low buy-in I would say this is an easy PF push because people like to call with suited connectors a LOT and hit their trash and call down your stop and go, where you could just take it down PF.

I don't really like the stop and go on the bubble when I can just shove my stack in for big blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay...so you think there is more FE pre-flop here than post-flop?

That's interesting b/c it sounds like DasLeben is pretty certain the villian is completely pot committed here.

I'm not sure there is a ton of FE to be fanagled here either preflop or postflop....but I'd like to maximize it if possible.

Yugoslav

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Button is pot-committed with his preflop raise. He's not going to lay down to a push on the flop (and it'd be correct for him to call anyways). I'd push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a dangerous assumption to make. The whole point of a SNG is that you have no folding equity preflop, but will have some (even if its only 10-20%) postflop if he misses. If you think Hero had no folding equity post flop you are wrong.

That said, I think I'd just push preflop. You usually have the best hand here (often a dominating one) and have him covered so just get all the money in as a likely favorite.

[lorinda]

so just get all the money in as a likely favorite.

I push preflop so that on the occasions I am in front, I eliminate him.

Edit: *Assuming I choose to play the hand.

Lori

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think Hero had no folding equity post flop you are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you're right. A good player is going to realize the excellent odds laying him and call. However, not every player is a good one (in fact, very few of them are), so yes, there is a chance of getting a fold out of Villian.

Still, I push preflop against this opponent considering his pushing range. Assuming that I'm ahead preflop most of the time, I like to just get the chips in and be able to use all 5 community cards to eliminate him.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
so just get all the money in as a likely favorite.

I push preflop so that on the occasions I am in front, I eliminate him.

Edit: *Assuming I choose to play the hand.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you...

I had not considered perhaps the most important consideration for this particular situation when thinking of pushing or stop n going here.

Yugoslav

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
A good player is going to realize the excellent odds laying him and call. However, not every player is a good one (in fact, very few of them are), so yes, there is a chance of getting a fold out of Villian.


[/ QUOTE ]

Even as a good player, lets say you raised with T9s (well of course a good player would have pushed ... but thats beside the point, maybe you misdragged the slider). The BB calls.

The flop is Q52 with none of your suit and your opponent pushes into you for 600 and there is 1500 in the pot.

Are you calling here?

How about if you have 55 on a TK8 flop?

The odds never look as good post flop as they do preflop.

[DasLeben]

Point taken. Admittedly I don't use stop and gos much at all (maybe I should start adding it to my lineup), so I should have left a disclaimer in my original post. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[fluorescenthippo]

this is actually only my 2nd time using a stop and go. i never knew their value until recently. im 0-2. villian had A5 /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Nick M]

yeah i actually was thinking Stop N Go was a good play, but reading what lorinda said about eliminating the guy made me realize...it's the bubble not 6 or 7 players left. Good point. Get it in their preflop on the bubble. If this was 6 or 7 left I like the Stop N Go.

[fluorescenthippo]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i actually was thinking Stop N Go was a good play, but reading what lorinda said about eliminating the guy made me realize...it's the bubble not 6 or 7 players left. Good point. Get it in their preflop on the bubble. If this was 6 or 7 left I like the Stop N Go.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you explain this further??

I would think a stop N go in on the bubble would be more effective because he would be even less likely to call.

[Nick M]

well like lorinda said. I would mostly likely have the best hand here and the chance to eliminate the player would be to great to risk the Stop N Go. I want this guy gone. Plus with his chip stack, you can take a chance. Like a freeroll kinda. You won't get killed if he flips over Aces. But he doesn't have aces. In fact he probably has a hand that you can destroy.

If it was 6 handed this play is great. You don't care too much about the player being eliminated, you want the chips and I think that's a great play to try and get them. Of course he should call no matter what. But some idiots don't know that.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
so just get all the money in as a likely favorite.

I push preflop so that on the occasions I am in front, I eliminate him.

Edit: *Assuming I choose to play the hand.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]
is this a good thing? Lets say the stop and go works. The villan is now crippled with 510 chips and the hero has 3145 on the button next hand leading to two things:
1. the villain, who is now UTG pushes and most likely finishes himself off
2. the villain folds, allowing the hero to push any two and steal 450 chips 90% of the time