$20+2 Getting frisky with JJ in level 1

[Freudian]

No reads on anyone.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
Hero (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t890)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t790)
SB (t720)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t65</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls t65, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t50, UTG calls t50, Hero calls t50.

Flop: (t332.50) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t150</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, MP1 folds, Button folds, BB calls t150.

Turn: (t932.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero goes all-in [t435]

Comments on all streets would be appreciated, especially pre-flop and flop.

[astarck]

Preflop Raise.

*EDIT* - You couldn't have really asked for a better flop.

[gh9801]

Seems fine.

[NYCNative]

PRE-FLOP

Raise. Limp-call is not good play. Jacks are tricky but still a premium hand. Not good enough to limp-reraise and why risk some crappy overcard in the blinds beat you? Define your hand.

AFTER THE FLOP

Minimum raise? I don't like it. A real raise will put you all-in? Fine. Push. Let him make the tough decision. I doubt he has a set if he only called your raise instead of going over the top.

TURN

Yeah. Pretty much.

EDIT: I'll bet he was either open-ended or had two overcards.

[gh9801]

Sometimes I would raise preflop here, sometimes I wouldn't. It depends on table

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I would raise preflop here, sometimes I wouldn't. It depends on table

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No reads on anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

[gh9801]

You win NYC

[Nottom]

This should be pretty standard.

[waarior]

Raise Pre-flop if you are going to stack off with an over pair. You are reraising a bet before the action reaches the original raiser. What would you have done if the original raiser pushes all-in? Much easier if you had taken the initiative. I also don't like the size of the reraise; as NYCNative said push.
In this case mp1(raiser) folded, and from there everything looks fine given the line you took. I would expect to see a set of 3's or 4's. First to act leading into 3 people reeks of "Brunson's bet into raiser with your set advice." But then again this is a 20 so you expect the set, get shown the a4s.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
PRE-FLOP

Raise. Limp-call is not good play. Jacks are tricky but still a premium hand. Not good enough to limp-reraise and why risk some crappy overcard in the blinds beat you? Define your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping with JJ/TT from EP is a pretty accepted line early in a SNG. You don't want to have to deal with a re-raise preflop.

[ QUOTE ]


AFTER THE FLOP

Minimum raise? I don't like it. A real raise will put you all-in? Fine. Push. Let him make the tough decision. I doubt he has a set if he only called your raise instead of going over the top.


[/ QUOTE ]
At this point in the hand, I'm confident I have the best hand, and if not I'm going broke. I don't like the min-raise only becasue I hate min-raises but I think making it 350 or 400 would be fine.
[ QUOTE ]

TURN

Yeah. Pretty much.



[/ QUOTE ]

yeah

[ QUOTE ]


EDIT: I'll bet he was either open-ended or had two overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible read.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise Pre-flop if you are going to stack off with an over pair. You are reraising a bet before the action reaches the original raiser. What would you have done if the original raiser pushes all-in? Much easier if you had taken the initiative. I also don't like the size of the reraise; as NYCNative said push.
In this case mp1(raiser) folded, and from there everything looks fine given the line you took. I would expect to see a set of 3's or 4's. First to act leading into 3 people reeks of "Brunson's bet into raiser with your set advice." But then again this is a 20 so you expect the set, get shown the a4s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Five-handed I play JJ as much for set value as overpair value.

I often see players overplay their JJ in levels 1-2 because it is a big pair. Often it shrinks up when the flop hits and they bust out because they got married to their hand.

If the preflop/flop raiser came over the top, thats a pretty good sign my hand is no good.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping with JJ/TT from EP is a pretty accepted line early in a SNG. You don't want to have to deal with a re-raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah you do. You define your hand, let villain do the same. A raise could be a lot of things, a reraise says you are probably behind. Nothing wrong with raise-fold or raise-call-and-be-careful if you don't hit a set. Beats limp-call in terms of gathering information.

You don't want to get married to them? Fine. This is a good way to avoid that.

[ QUOTE ]
At this point in the hand, I'm confident I have the best hand, and if not I'm going broke. I don't like the min-raise only becasue I hate min-raises but I think making it 350 or 400 would be...

[/ QUOTE ] If you're going to be commited, and that bet would pretty much do that, may as well push. Makes a tougher decision for villain.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a terrible read.

[/ QUOTE ]Not if the player was bad and I see a lot of that. Why the call of the min-raise? A set should go all-in there and he only called. He's not slow-playing it or he wouldn't have led the betting there. He's fishing for something. Or maybe he has top pair and is nervous. But a $150 bet-call there is a strange play all around.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah you do. You define your hand, let villain do the same. A raise could be a lot of thing, a reraise says you are probably behind. Nothing wrong with raise-fold or raise-call and be careful if you don't hit a set. Beats limp-call in terms of gathering information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to gain information is one of the most overrated and overused plays in hold'em IMO (and in SnGs with small stacks it's an even worse idea). Especially if it is against players you never encountered before.

[NYCNative]

What information did you gain from limp-call then exactly?

EDIT: And you're not doing it strictly for information. You have a hand. Five-handed, it's a damn good hand. Play it as such.

[Freudian]

Calling isn't done for information purposes. It is to see a flop. That is the information I want here.

[1C5]

JJ is a tough hand to play. Harrington does advise raising it from any position in an unraised pot.

You said you play JJ as much for the set value so then with so many opponents why not fold when no set is hit?

I think JJ is too strong just to limp with as it plays better against fewer opponents. I used to limp with JJ also but then when the 56 guy in the BB who beat me with 2 pairs because I didn't raise for the 10th time, it made me take HOH's advice and raise with JJ from any position.

[Freudian]

Set and overpair value.

Problem with raising is that if you can't get it headsup, you might as well play it five handed. Seeing an expensive flop 3-handed with JJ is horrible. And what kind of raise gets you headsup here (while not getting you in trouble early too regularly)?

[NYCNative]

So the flop hits and you know nothing about the two people in the pot. I'd rather not see flops and gain information which told me that seeing the flop was probably not a good idea than see flops and be clueless about where I stand. That's just me - and trust me, I LOVE seeing flops.

[NYCNative]

I agree with you and Harrington. There are cases where I wouldn't raise with Jacks, but not too many.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
So the flop hits and you know nothing about the two people in the pot. I'd rather not see flops and gain information which told me that seeing the flop was probably not a good idea than see flops and be clueless about where I stand. That's just me - and trust me, I LOVE seeing flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big and obvious difference with my JJ preflop and on the flop is that I know much more about how I like my hand on the flop.

Feel free to raise for information and go by the reads you think you gain from it in levels 1-2. I think it is poor SnG-strategy.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Problem with raising is that if you can't get it headsup, you might as well play it five handed. Seeing an expensive flop 3-handed with JJ is horrible. And what kind of raise gets you headsup here (while not getting you in trouble early too regularly)?

[/ QUOTE ]If the standard raise (like to the amount you called anyway) leaves three people, play the flop as if both players have two overs and missed. If the flop is all undercards, come out with a pot-sized bet assuming you have the best hand. If it has overs, be careful. Maybe a 1/2-pot teaser or even check-fold.

Jacks are tricky, but why turn them into 5s? Limp-call turns them into 5s, IMHO.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
The big and obvious difference with my JJ preflop and on the flop is that I know much more about how I like my hand on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. If you knew so much about where your hand stood, why the min-raise on the turn? What did that accomplish exactly? Did you think you had the best hand and were being cute? Were you scared you were behind somehow? What was your logic?

[waarior]

The problem with playing jj for set value that I see is that if the flop is unders like it his here it is very difficult to not overplay the hand. i.e It is deceptively strong.

Though the hand was raised. It looks like you may be overplaying the hand here because it is overs. Facing a bet, you obviously decided your hand was good as an overpair.

Not saying that it is incorrect to do so but if I play a hand (9s 10s js etc.) for set value I try to play it for set value. If the flop is unders it is a good hand, just not one I like to go broke with.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with playing jj for set value that I see is that if the flop is unders like it his here it is very difficult to not overplay the hand. i.e It is deceptively strong.

Though the hand was raised. It looks like you may be overplaying the hand here because it is overs. Facing a bet, you obviously decided your hand was good as an overpair.

Not saying that it is incorrect to do so but if I play a hand (9s 10s js etc.) for set value I try to play it for set value. If the flop is unders it is a good hand, just not one I like to go broke with.

[/ QUOTE ]

What in this hand says I was willing to go broke here?

[waarior]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with playing jj for set value that I see is that if the flop is unders like it his here it is very difficult to not overplay the hand. i.e It is deceptively strong.

Though the hand was raised. It looks like you may be overplaying the hand here because it is overs. Facing a bet, you obviously decided your hand was good as an overpair.

Not saying that it is incorrect to do so but if I play a hand (9s 10s js etc.) for set value I try to play it for set value. If the flop is unders it is a good hand, just not one I like to go broke with.

[/ QUOTE ]

What in this hand says I was willing to go broke here?

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn push to a safe card. Not necessarilly broke on the flop. Given the action you still thought your overpair was good.

Your hand is an example of why I don't love the advice of limping with hands like these. I think you aren't giving up very much if you do but it isn't ideal. As is obvious from this post you are still often faced with difficult decisions on 'safe' flops.

I agree raising for information is poor strategy but don't discount the information you glean when your raise for the standard reasons like to increase overall expectation. If you had raised preflop everyone has to respond to that raise. Believe it or not even at the 20's that tells you something. Though I concede often it doesn't seem like it.

Not saying that not raising doesn't have some merit but the passivity seems to contrast with your willingness to pump the pot once the flop comes[getting 1/2 your original stack in before the action even gets back to the initial raiser]. Overall, at the 20's this will work out fine and you will win this hand the majority of the time but I just don't think it is best.

cheers.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with playing jj for set value that I see is that if the flop is unders like it his here it is very difficult to not overplay the hand. i.e It is deceptively strong.

Though the hand was raised. It looks like you may be overplaying the hand here because it is overs. Facing a bet, you obviously decided your hand was good as an overpair.

Not saying that it is incorrect to do so but if I play a hand (9s 10s js etc.) for set value I try to play it for set value. If the flop is unders it is a good hand, just not one I like to go broke with.

[/ QUOTE ]

What in this hand says I was willing to go broke here?

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn push to a safe card. Not necessarilly broke on the flop. Given the action you still thought your overpair was good.

Your hand is an example of why I don't love the advice of limping with hands like these. I think you aren't giving up very much if you do but it isn't ideal. As is obvious from this post you are still often faced with difficult decisions on 'safe' flops.

I agree raising for information is poor strategy but don't discount the information you glean when your raise for the standard reasons like to increase overall expectation. If you had raised preflop everyone has to respond to that raise. Believe it or not even at the 20's that tells you something. Though I concede often it doesn't seem like it.

Not saying that not raising doesn't have some merit but the passivity seems to contrast with your willingness to pump the pot once the flop comes[getting 1/2 your original stack in before the action even gets back to the initial raiser]. Overall, at the 20's this will work out fine and you will win this hand the majority of the time but I just don't think it is best.

cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn it is no longer five handed, it's headsup. Furthermore it is headsup with a guy that just called where someone who has me beat on the flop would have raised 95% of the times.

I thought you meant high risk plays with "willing to go broke". If you mean plays like this, and where I got a set, quads and whatever then yes, I was willing to go broke. I am willing to go broke every hand I see the flop in that case.

I don't see what is confusing about treating JJ as a very good hand when it hits a good flop but not treating is as an all that good hand preflop in level 1-2. For me it is much closer to 88 than it is to QQ in this situation. With four players already entereing a raised pot preflop and being out of position I don't think a preflop raise makes this much easier to play, especially on a tricky flop. With a tricky flop with my way of playing it I can get away from the hand without sinking 25%+ of my chips into the hand before the flop.

In the 55s and above with a bigger starting stack and more information about my opponents, it is possible that another strategy has to be used. I think it is rarer that 5 players enter a raised pot preflop there though.

[jeffraider]

I really like the way you played this hand. I completely agree with how you treat JJ preflop, and I think the only think I'd change is uping the flop raise amount to 400ish.

[beeyjay]

PRE
limp then fold to that raise.

FLOP
Push.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
PRE
limp then fold to that raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold for 50 chips?

I don't mind a preflop limp OOP but folding to that measly raise -- with all those tasty implied odds for the set -- seems unreasonable.

EDIT: Hell, he's almost got IMMEDIATE odds to call.

[ilya]

Preflop I think is fine. I don't like raising with JJ in EP at my buy-ins ($22 and $33)...you make a big raise and get re-raised, you have to chuck it even though you're often folding the best hand...you make a moderate raise and you often get just the wrong number of people seeing the flop with you, 3 or 4...

Why aren't you pushing the flop? I like pushing the flop. What the heck do you do if the turn comes an Ace or King instead of a 5?

[beeyjay]

ya i didnt pay atten that so many other people called. you have to call it.

[Scuba Chuck]

I hate level 1. If you can get out unscathed it was a success. I don't mind the limp.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

Why aren't you pushing the flop? I like pushing the flop. What the heck do you do if the turn comes an Ace or King instead of a 5?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't know what to make of the 150 chip bet, and with two to act behind me pushing is overdoing it. As I see it the last two get a 300 bet into them. They aren't going to do anything but fold unless they really like their hand. Most likely they fold. And what the original bettor does when it comes back to him with a raise will determine what I do. Fold/call is good news for me, all-in bad.

I would probably push on the turn no matter what card comes, if the other guy checks to me. If he pushes if an A or K comes, I would have to think about it. But you can't really go around being scared like that. If it comes it comes. It is much more likely that it doesn't.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why aren't you pushing the flop? I like pushing the flop. What the heck do you do if the turn comes an Ace or King instead of a 5?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't know what to make of the 150 chip bet, and with two to act behind me pushing is overdoing it. As I see it the last two get a 300 bet into them. They aren't going to do anything but fold unless they really like their hand. Most likely they fold. And what the original bettor does when it comes back to him with a raise will determine what I do. Fold/call is good news for me, all-in bad.

I would probably push on the turn no matter what card comes, if the other guy checks to me. If he pushes if an A or K comes, I would have to think about it. But you can't really go around being scared like that. If it comes it comes. It is much more likely that it doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?! You were planning to fold on the flop if BB re-raised all-in?! I thought your play was a bid to get him to do precisely that, so that you could call....folding seems much too tight to me. I don't even think you should fold if there's an all-in behind you and the BB calls!

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why aren't you pushing the flop? I like pushing the flop. What the heck do you do if the turn comes an Ace or King instead of a 5?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't know what to make of the 150 chip bet, and with two to act behind me pushing is overdoing it. As I see it the last two get a 300 bet into them. They aren't going to do anything but fold unless they really like their hand. Most likely they fold. And what the original bettor does when it comes back to him with a raise will determine what I do. Fold/call is good news for me, all-in bad.

I would probably push on the turn no matter what card comes, if the other guy checks to me. If he pushes if an A or K comes, I would have to think about it. But you can't really go around being scared like that. If it comes it comes. It is much more likely that it doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?! You were planning to fold on the flop if BB re-raised all-in?! I thought your play was a bid to get him to do precisely that, so that you could call....folding seems much too tight to me. I don't even think you should fold if there's an all-in behind you and the BB calls!

[/ QUOTE ]

If for example MP1 raised all in and BB calls, I would be more then happy to get out of the hand.

If BB would have pushed I would have to think about it. Probably call though.

I see no reason to push this flop. The raise is a strong enough play here while giving me the opportunity to get out of two players tells me I am beat.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why aren't you pushing the flop? I like pushing the flop. What the heck do you do if the turn comes an Ace or King instead of a 5?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't know what to make of the 150 chip bet, and with two to act behind me pushing is overdoing it. As I see it the last two get a 300 bet into them. They aren't going to do anything but fold unless they really like their hand. Most likely they fold. And what the original bettor does when it comes back to him with a raise will determine what I do. Fold/call is good news for me, all-in bad.

I would probably push on the turn no matter what card comes, if the other guy checks to me. If he pushes if an A or K comes, I would have to think about it. But you can't really go around being scared like that. If it comes it comes. It is much more likely that it doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?! You were planning to fold on the flop if BB re-raised all-in?! I thought your play was a bid to get him to do precisely that, so that you could call....folding seems much too tight to me. I don't even think you should fold if there's an all-in behind you and the BB calls!

[/ QUOTE ]

If for example MP1 raised all in and BB calls, I would be more then happy to get out of the hand.

If BB would have pushed I would have to think about it. Probably call though.

I see no reason to push this flop. The raise is a strong enough play here while giving me the opportunity to get out of two players tells me I am beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO if this is your standard plan, you are considerably underestimating the value of medium overpairs at the $20s. I can see folding if both players behind me play strongly and the BB calls, but that's about it. I really think if you play tighter than that on the flop, you're not winning as much as you could be at this buy-in level.