how the heck do you get started in NL cash games?

[MrTeddyKGB]

some quick background. I have over 300k hands plalyed online playing limit between 1-2 and 10-20. I am currently winning at 10-20 6max after 47k hands. I have set aside 2,000 to start my NL education. I have a few questions, about the differences between NL and limit ring games. There seems to less writen on NL than limit.

1. I have super system and HOH any other important books for NL ?

2. What size blinds should I play if I have a 2,000k bankroll that I can afford to lose learning NL. I want to be double bankrolled for what level I play since i will probly make some bad mistakes.

3. Where do start my preflop stratgy. Or how do I change my pre-flop statagy from limit. This is my main question any links to important threads or other sources would be helpful.

4. I consider blind steal and defence a top prioity in limit would you consider it more, less or just as important in NL.

5. any links to anything dealing with NL that I can read that has helped them with anything there just seems to be less good material out there for NL. Any posters I should serch the NL forum for.

[ryanghall]

I would read Pot Limit and No Limit Hold'em by Ciaffone.

If you want to be double-rolled I would start at 50 NL.

Tighten up your preflop strategy. NL, in a nutshell, is about hitting sets and doubling up. This is where the majority of your money will be made.

Blinds are much less important to defend in NL. This doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done at all, but it's far less important. This probably won't be a problem at 50 NL, however. The games are too loose for there to be a lot of blind stealing.

Search for posts from soah and TheWorstPlayer. They are very good posters. There are others, but they are escaping my mind at the moment.

Hope this helps,
Ryan

[MrTeddyKGB]

nm

[SirArthur]

IMO, books really won't help you with your NL play.

It's recommended you have about 15-20 buy ins to be properly bankrolled for NL.

I play NL 200, & NL 400, and the most buy ins I've ever lost playing nearly full time for a year 1/2 is about 5.

Table conditions dictate my preflop strategy. For example, if I'm to the left of a couple of fish who are in every hand, going to far with them, I'll try & see a flop with lots of hands. If I hit the flop hard, I'm looking to take someone's stack.

If the table is pretty tight, I'll really tighten up my preflop play.

Don't get to aggressive with TPTK, NL (full ring) is a game of two pair or better.

I see so many people lose their shirt with A/K when they flop TPTK, against someones flopped set or two pair.

I don't see blind stealing as important in NL as it is in limit. Blind stealing is important in tourney's, but not NL ring games.
But I'll definitely put the pressure on the blinds if I'm in the CO or Button with a decent hand. I'm raising 3X the BB most every time if it's folded to me.

Sets are my huge money makers in NL. Alot of people can't lay down their top two, or flush or straight, (on a paired board, that you've boated up on.

I'll sometimes play for a couple of hours winning only a couple of hands and finishing up nicely for my session.

Finally caveat here with NL play.

Reading your opponent is much more important with NL, than limit.
With some opponents (who I know are tight) I'll fold my top pair if i'm raised. With a fish in the hand with me, I'll raise him with mid pair.

Watching what hands people play, & how they bet them is key in NL. Look for their patterns & exploit them.

Good luck...

*I'm looking to work on my limit game, I play 2/4, 3/6 limit sometimes just for a break, but 98% of my play is NL.
Maybe I'll hit you up for some advice on limit play soon.

[MrTeddyKGB]

ty good repy my best game is short handed limit. How many tables do you play.

[SirArthur]

Since gaining reads is crucial in NL, I try not play more than 3 tables, sometimes I play 4, but not the often.

I play mostly full ring, but sometimes I play 6 max. The six max tables are a totally different game too.

I'd recommend starting out at the full ring games.

[Godfather80]

At the 50NL level, as other posters have said, you are just looking to hit big hands and double up. I think that you'll find NL a lot less nuanced than limit. I say this only because you can avoid close decisions in NL at 50 level and just play tight and wait. There is no reason to do sophisticated things or waste your money on bluffing. Sophisticated plays that count on fold equity and dynamite reads are needless as people never fold and almost always play worse hands than you'd imagine. Bluffing is a waste because nobody lays anything down anyway and they'll pay you off (for the most part) even if you go nut-peddling for several hours.

What you will find is that you will need to figure out how to wring the most out of some jackass who plays any two cards when you hit a real hand. This is the biggest challenge.

[grimel]

[ QUOTE ]

Finally caveat here with NL play.

Reading your opponent is much more important with NL, than limit.
With some opponents (who I know are tight) I'll fold my top pair if i'm raised. With a fish in the hand with me, I'll raise him with mid pair.

Watching what hands people play, & how they bet them is key in NL. Look for their patterns & exploit them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read this 2x, maybe 3x. If you have a very good read on someone it is possible to take their stack with baby pairs and a board of face cards. This is NOT a play to make very often, not many people are that set in a pattern.

[DiabloVt7]

You can bluff if you have the right image. When I go into a room and I pronounce a very tight image. Raising on hands that are good and winning say with kings or aces. They'll get to knowing when you raise you usually have a good hand. Then eventually you may find that less people call your rasie, sometimes none. That's where I raise with B.S. cards and show the 9 high. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Or if you get a lot of hands heads-up you can do the same.

[barongreenback]

Chances are you'll start of a winner at SS NL. The way I think about it is that limit is a fight for the pot but at NL you go after your opponent's stacks. You have to fight for pot at NL as well and implied odds are important at limit as well it is one way to look at it.

Even though I knew the theory I have had some difficulty adjusting fully from limit. The main thing is to be much more careful about putting money into the pot. You're never getting those juicy odds that you get at limit. Always ask yourself where you're going be later on in the hand when the big money moves. Consider the hand you're building as much as the hand you hold.

I'm a short handed player at limit as well and I doubt it'll be long before you leave the full games at NL.

Good luck
James

[pokernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
You can bluff if you have the right image. When I go into a room and I pronounce a very tight image. Raising on hands that are good and winning say with kings or aces. They'll get to knowing when you raise you usually have a good hand. Then eventually you may find that less people call your rasie, sometimes none. That's where I raise with B.S. cards and show the 9 high. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Or if you get a lot of hands heads-up you can do the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you can bluff even at this level, but you have to pick your spots very carefully. In the context of online games, I disagree, however, that table image is very important for two reasons:

1) A make-up of a given table online is constantly changing -- people frequently leave and join. So, someone may not be around long enough to know that you are a tight player and that your raises 'should be respected.'

2) Many of the players may not even be paying that much attention to begin with, so they may not notice that you're involved in few pots. This is especially true online where a) your opponents are simply represented by a screen name and perhaps an avatar (which makes it hard to pay attention), and b) your opponents may be multi-tabling, so are more likely to be playing their cards as opposed to their opponents.

In general, bluffs can work, though probably less often. You just have to pick your spots very carefully. It depends on the usual factors: the players you're up against (and any previous interactions you've had with them), the texture of the board, the amount of money in the pot, your betting patterns on that hands, their betting patterns, etc.

[iluzion]

I came here to see if I could find something like this post. I'll contribute a question as well, how much should you be betting in relation to whats in the pot when you have made hands?

[MrTeddyKGB]

thanks for the replies so far they have been helpful. As a side question what is the accepted range in terms of vip and pfr in full ring Nl cash games (say the NL 50) for most of the winning nl players on here. I would assume post flop is really a matter of style/

[theben]

1. I have super system and HOH any other important books for NL ?

***possibly but i dont know. playing is more important


2. What size blinds should I play if I have a 2,000k bankroll that I can afford to lose learning NL. I want to be double bankrolled for what level I play since i will probly make some bad mistakes.


***Play NL100 if you single table, or play NL50 if you wanna play 3-4 games at once


3. Where do start my preflop stratgy. Or how do I change my pre-flop statagy from limit. This is my main question any links to important threads or other sources would be helpful.


***small pairs = bigger friend now. big cards = lose more money in the wrong spots. unpiared big cards = not nearly as nice. you can get away with raising preflop less and 'nut peddling' your sets or you can play a LAG 'assault the small pot on the flop' game, whatever you choose

4. I consider blind steal and defence a top prioity in limit would you consider it more, less or just as important in NL.

***blind steal is still a tool i use a lot in tigher games but you'll be risking a lot more X the bb to steal it.. i dont care too much about defending my blind. steal the pot on the flop with a bet is crucial

5. any links to anything dealing with NL that I can read that has helped them with anything there just seems to be less good material out there for NL. Any posters I should serch the NL forum for.

**dont know

[MrTeddyKGB]

thanks for the replies so far i will report back after my first 3,000 hands or so.

[creedofhubris]

Some general pieces of advice:

Don't even think about "defending your blinds" in a full ring NL game. Wrong mentality. While you can complete a small blind with any connector and any two suited, you shouldn't be calling raises anywhere with anything but top big card hands (AQ+, KQs/AJs if you feel frisky), pocket pairs, and suited connectors. See a lot of flops with pocket pairs, but fold if you miss your set.

Raise AK, AQ (in position) JJ-AA big preflop. 5x big blind or so. Don't call reraises with AQ. Into a reraise, JJ and often QQ are like 44, you're looking to spike a set.

Bet the pot, or close to it, when you bet.

Don't minraise.

Don't bluff.

[Soul Daddy]

This thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2267381&page=12&view=coll apsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all&vc=1) is a good place to start.

[TheWorstPlayer]

bobbyi is in a very similar boat, I believe. Search out his posts (his early ones were particularly interesting, IMO) and you might want to PM him as well.