Never fold KK preflop, what about AA?

[mike28]

Wow, these were 2 hands that really made me laugh today. I have never in my life considered folding KK or AA preflop at the 11s until today. Enjoy these 2 hands! I have to do these manually since the convertor hates AP

FIRST HAND OF THE TOURNAMENT. 10/15 blinds

1. Villian (1500)
2.""
3.""
4.""
5.""
6.""
7.""
8.Hero (1500)

Hero delt K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

Villian raises to 1500 (all in), 7 folds, Hero....


Now for the AA gem

Hero delt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif
Blinds 1/200

1.2800
2.3500
3.2900
4.2500
5. Hero 4100

1 Raises to 2800 (all in), 2. Raises to 3500 (all in), fold, 4 calls 2500, Hero.....

[pergesu]

I can't see it being correct to fold either of these hands.

[stupidsucker]

is this a joke?

[Benholio]

In the second example, if you had 410 chips instead of 4100, maybe there would be some grounds for discussion.

[citanul]

these tournaments pay 3 spots in standard 5/3/2 fashion?

hand 1 call

hand 2 i think i'd probably fold, but i'd have to think more about that one.

citanul

[valenzuela]

ehhh..the worst case scenario is you have t600 chips left

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
is this a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not great at math, so I'd just rely on my hunch that my AA is the best hand here. When I win I set myself up very nicely to win the tourney. If I don't, depending on who wins, I either make the money or am still on the bubble.

Mind explaining to me why that would be a joke?

[mike28]

[ QUOTE ]
these tournaments pay 3 spots in standard 5/3/2 fashion?

hand 1 call

hand 2 i think i'd probably fold, but i'd have to think more about that one.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah 5/3/2. You're getting close to where I was going on hand 2...

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is this a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not great at math, so I'd just rely on my hunch that my AA is the best hand here. When I win I set myself up very nicely to win the tourney. If I don't, depending on who wins, I either make the money or am still on the bubble.

Mind explaining to me why that would be a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was speaking of the original poster. Laying down aces as the big stack?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
these tournaments pay 3 spots in standard 5/3/2 fashion?

hand 1 call

hand 2 i think i'd probably fold, but i'd have to think more about that one.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 is a very clear call. You have the best hand, and even if you lose you will probably get at least 3rd, because you were the top stack preflop. Again it might actually be a good case if you had like 400 chips left, but with 4100, folding is very bad IMO.

[BDarch]

yea I don't see any reason for folding hand 2 because the way I see it at worst you're most likely getting 3rd but if you win it should be easy to take 1st

[stupidsucker]

1.2800
2.3500
3.2900
4.2500
5. Hero 4100


This doesnt even add up right for starting stacks of 1500.

[J-Lo]

Guys i think citanul was bullchitting you guys... because it is such a clear play

[Jason Strasser]

Thinking about situations like this makes you worse at poker.

[petvan]

I insta-push both. These are the hands I'm dying to get some action on. The AA one is a no brainer for me.

[lastchance]

You called, right? These are both calls, pretty easy ones. Folding would be big mistake here.

[Eric Draven]

I'm sure if this is a joke, both are easy calls.

[tomdemaine]

Don't listen to these guys fold it quickly /images/graemlins/smile.gif

***** Hand History for Game 2050732317 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:12216242 Level:7 Blinds(200/400) - Saturday, May 14, 23:41:19 EDT 2005
Table Table 14519 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: lostwithaces ( $3060 )
Seat 7: BigShed ( $2910 )
Seat 8: greenman67 ( $2030 )
Trny:12216242 Level:7
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lostwithaces [ Kc Kd ]
>You have options at Table 14008 Table!.
BigShed is all-In [2910]
greenman67 is all-In [1830]
lostwithaces calls [2510].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Ks, Qs ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
BigShed shows [ 3s, Ad ] a straight, ten to ace.
greenman67 shows [ Kh, Ah ] a straight, ten to ace.
lostwithaces shows [ Kc, Kd ] three of a kind, kings.
BigShed wins 1760 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ten to ace.
greenman67 wins 3045 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
BigShed wins 3045 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.

[Eric Draven]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't listen to these guys fold it quickly /images/graemlins/smile.gif

***** Hand History for Game 2050732317 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:12216242 Level:7 Blinds(200/400) - Saturday, May 14, 23:41:19 EDT 2005
Table Table 14519 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: lostwithaces ( $3060 )
Seat 7: BigShed ( $2910 )
Seat 8: greenman67 ( $2030 )
Trny:12216242 Level:7
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lostwithaces [ Kc Kd ]
>You have options at Table 14008 Table!.
BigShed is all-In [2910]
greenman67 is all-In [1830]
lostwithaces calls [2510].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Ks, Qs ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
BigShed shows [ 3s, Ad ] a straight, ten to ace.
greenman67 shows [ Kh, Ah ] a straight, ten to ace.
lostwithaces shows [ Kc, Kd ] three of a kind, kings.
BigShed wins 1760 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ten to ace.
greenman67 wins 3045 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
BigShed wins 3045 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's rough man...

[valenzuela]

a subtle bad beat post, at least u didnt create a new thread. Anyway dont let bad beats discourage u just keep playing winning poker.

[Nottom]

1) Normal people like to get paid with AA. He's got crap or at best A-rag or a smaller pair ... call.

2) Are you in a satalitte tourny that pays top 3? No, you are in a SNG.

Not only do you have AA, but you have all these chumps covered so even if you do lose you still have chips left. Also unless specificaly the guy with 3500 beats you, but loses the main pot to one of the other guys (ex he makes a set but someopne else makes a flush) the field will be cut to 3 after this hand so you still make the money.

Folding AA preflop is stupid. Don't do it.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
That's rough man...

[/ QUOTE ]

*yawn*

Someone catching their 4-outer in an SNG is a routine thing. I no longer call these bad beats. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

Someone catching their 4-outer in an SNG is a routine thing. I no longer call these bad beats.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, anythign that happens to me multiple times a day isn't a bad beat no matter how much it sucks.

AA losing to 33
AK losing to AJ on a A-high flop.
Top set losing to a gutshot

those are routine. If you are going to tell a bad beat story at least make it a legitimate beat.

feel free to ignore the rest of this post if you don't want to read about a bad beat ...


Like once I flopped quads and a guy with undercards and no draw on the flop went perfect-perfect for the straight flush to beat me. The best part about it was that he bet the river, i raised and he ... called! (this was limit, and yes I bet every street)

[Scuba Chuck]

Hand 1 call.

Hand 2, there is likely 2 Axs in that group. I'd think about it a while, but I'm confident I'd call. There are sidepots to consider in this group as well, that you could take down.

[mike28]

These are both obviously auto calls, but I did think about it. My logic.

On the KK hand it was soley because it was the first hand, and I didn't want to risk that. Then, rationality came in and I realized there's not many better spots I can bet in to get all my chips in. I quickly slayed his TT.

Hand 2 was more of a means of sneaking through the bubble. Folding guarentees ITM almost, and I'm left with 4k to play with. Calling and losing leaves me with 6xBB, with one going into the SB next hand. Not the best situation, however I forgot that I'd still be ITM regardless if I lost, and that makes a big difference

[pzhon]

In an $11 tournament, there are enough maniacs that it is clear to call with KK. As a result, I sometimes open-push in EP on the first hand of the tournament if I have AA. I think it's clearly the right play with AA in a Stars rebuy MTT.

It's wrong to fold AA in the second hand, just not as foolish as it usually would be to fold AA. For simplicity, assume the player with 3500 will have the best of the 3 hands.

If you fold, by the ICM you expect to get 31.6% of the prize pool.

If you call, then by one distribution, you win about 58% of the time. If you win you average 46.3% of the prize pool. If you lose you average 22.6% of the prize pool. The average is 36.3%.

Under these conservative assumptions, it is right to call by 4.7% of the prize pool, over 40% of a buy-in. Folding AA costs more than the ROI of a solid winner for a whole tournament, even in this situation where you skip the bubble if you fold. <font color="white">If you had 410, calling would only give you 26% of the prize pool if you win, and folding gives you 22%, so it would be right to fold.</font>