Good place for a stop n go?

[1C5]

Or fold this?
Villian has been rather tight.

Bad play by me?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1434)
Button (t2841)
SB (t1475)
Hero (t730)
UTG (t1520)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t600</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t300.

Flop: (t1350) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t130 (All-In)</font>, Button calls t130.

Turn: (t1610) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t1610) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1610

[pergesu]

It'd be nice if you actually had chips to make him fold. Either push or fold preflop.

[citanul]

honestly i think you're too short to consider it actually a stop and go. however, that's my first blush analysis.

second blush goes like this: you can't fold this preflop, so you are going to put all your chips in anyway, so there's clearly no reason not to do a stop and go. he might get disconnected or something, who knows. maybe he'll even fold on purpose.

so yeah, after the initial reaction of "eh, just get all in preflop" you get a final reaction of "played perfectly, don't consider folding preflop."

citanul

[holeplug]

You don't have enough chips to do a stop n go here so just push or fold preflop

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
It'd be nice if you actually had chips to make him fold. Either push or fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

how about actually putting some reasoning into your post. for instance, your last sentence is completely worthless. i don't believe this is a spot where it's remotely close between push or fold, so if you're going to give the advice of "push or fold" you should offer advice on which to do.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have enough chips to do a stop n go here so just push or fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm having huge contention with this in this post, which is why i'm liking the existence of this post. the only technical thing that you need to have for a stop and go is 1 chip. the opponent simply has to have the option to press the fold button.

ie: what would hero lose by stop and going with too few chips that he would have had by being all in preflop?

citanul

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It'd be nice if you actually had chips to make him fold. Either push or fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

how about actually putting some reasoning into your post. for instance, your last sentence is completely worthless. i don't believe this is a spot where it's remotely close between push or fold, so if you're going to give the advice of "push or fold" you should offer advice on which to do.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I said if he had chips to make the guy lay down, he could consider a stop and go. But since he doesn't, he has to consider a different play.

Whether that play is pushing or folding is up to him. He said the guy is tight. Tight enough to for hero to fold here? Maybe, I don't know.

I answered the original question as I saw it, and provided the reasoning behind my answer.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It'd be nice if you actually had chips to make him fold. Either push or fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

how about actually putting some reasoning into your post. for instance, your last sentence is completely worthless. i don't believe this is a spot where it's remotely close between push or fold, so if you're going to give the advice of "push or fold" you should offer advice on which to do.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I said if he had chips to make the guy lay down, he could consider a stop and go. But since he doesn't, he has to consider a different play.

Whether that play is pushing or folding is up to him. He said the guy is tight. Tight enough to for hero to fold here? Maybe, I don't know.

I answered the original question as I saw it, and provided the reasoning behind my answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally i don't think that there is any way at all that hero can fold here. i think that your posts (both of them) are entirely without reasoning, which is well, what too much of this forum is. the response of "you should push or fold preflop" is even worse than just forumbot's response of "push preflop."

see, if the question was "up to him" he wouldn't have posted it on a board asking for opinions on the hand. your original post had absolutely no qualifier of "i don't know how tight he has been blah blah blah" but well, i'm pretty sure you couldn't make up any sane kind of range of hands for the guy to have that you could say that the hero should fold preflop to.

as i said in my op, since hero can't fold this hand at all, i think that considering the stop and go, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS TOO FEW CHIPS TO MAKE A SANE PLAYER FOLD, is wise as an alternative to just going all in preflop, as it has no downside.

citanul

[curtains]

Folding preflop is completely ridiculous. The best play is to call and push on the flop, but it's usually irrelevant. Pushing preflop gains zero as your opponent will call 100% of the time. Calling preflop and pushing the flop gains almost zero, as your opponent will almost always call. However there is that rare breed of opponent who will fold a weak hand on the flop, thus denying themselves a possible 20-25% chance to beat you. It is very very very rare, but a very small chance is better than no chance at all.

[Eric Draven]

No... Like everyone has said, no idiot is going to lay down a hand for another 130, I would go all-in before the flop - if not then fold, stop n go is terrible here.

[lastchance]

Stop n go is SO MUCH BETTER THAN FOLD your statement is COMPLETELY ridiculous. Stop and go is certainly, 100% of the time, the best play here. You shouldn't have to worry about folding on the flop because you are all-in, for all intents and purpose in the dark.

Also, you want your opponent to fold, even if you flop top pair, because their pot odds are so tremendous they should call anyway.

So, compared to pushing, this allows you to get extra equity from folds (however tiny it may be), and loses no equity.

BTW, there is almost no way whatsoever that you should fold a hand like KTs with only 2x BB. I would only consider it if 2 people wound up all-in in front of you.

[jcm4ccc]

Of course you use the stop and go. Anyone who would push here rather than stop and go has a huge leak. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO THE STOP AND GO IN THIS SITUATION. None. Nada. Nothing.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
No... Like everyone has said, no idiot is going to lay down a hand for another 130, I would go all-in before the flop - if not then fold, stop n go is terrible here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Why is pushing better than calling and then pushing?

I hope it's clear why a stop n go is betting than pushing here...

Yugoslav
Who realizes that the marginal amount of $EV you can squeak out by a stop n go vs. push is not exactly tremendous here...

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It'd be nice if you actually had chips to make him fold. Either push or fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

how about actually putting some reasoning into your post. for instance, your last sentence is completely worthless. i don't believe this is a spot where it's remotely close between push or fold, so if you're going to give the advice of "push or fold" you should offer advice on which to do.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Citanul is an angry man. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lastchance]

It's not a huge leak. You're not going to get too many folds from this. The situation where your play matters is so rare that pushing is about the same.

But, it does show a fundamental flaw in the way you view the game.

[The Yugoslavian]

Well, unless you want to fold.

But I'm not sure there is a very good argument for that line...

So yes, this is a place where it's very clear cut how to maximize $EV once you decide you want to play the hand.

Yugoslav

[lastchance]

Folding this is BAD.... Borderline absolutely horrible.

[Al P]

[ QUOTE ]
But, it does show a fundamental flaw in the way you view the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate?

[microbet]

I know this dead horse has been beaten, but stop-n-go is best.

The $EV diff. between stop-n-go and pushing preflop is very small, but it could not be more clear that on average you will have more FE after the flop than before it.

Folding would make baby Jesus cry.

[Eric Draven]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No... Like everyone has said, no idiot is going to lay down a hand for another 130, I would go all-in before the flop - if not then fold, stop n go is terrible here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Why is pushing better than calling and then pushing?

I hope it's clear why a stop n go is betting than pushing here...

Yugoslav
Who realizes that the marginal amount of $EV you can squeak out by a stop n go vs. push is not exactly tremendous here...

[/ QUOTE ]

I mis-spoke, it's not horrible... But pointless. What FE do you gain? And do you really want FE here? You can't fold after you called that, and when you do hit it, I think most of the time I'd rather double up against a guy that was trying to steal or something than have some guy fold when he misses (which will be.... Umm... 1 in a million times?) - just push (because can not see folding this short stacked).

I really don't see the point of doing a stop n go.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

I really don't see the point of doing a stop n go.

[/ QUOTE ]

To give yourself more of a chance (albeit very small chance) to acquire free chips (won chips without showdown).

Free chips are the best kind.

Yugoslav

[lastchance]

It's about squeezing every edge you can. Pushing instead of Stop and go means that you don't understand how you can get hands to fold on the flop that your opponents wouldn't have folded preflop.

This is worth a lot of equity.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No... Like everyone has said, no idiot is going to lay down a hand for another 130, I would go all-in before the flop - if not then fold, stop n go is terrible here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Why is pushing better than calling and then pushing?

I hope it's clear why a stop n go is betting than pushing here...

Yugoslav
Who realizes that the marginal amount of $EV you can squeak out by a stop n go vs. push is not exactly tremendous here...

[/ QUOTE ]

I mis-spoke, it's not horrible... But pointless. What FE do you gain? And do you really want FE here? You can't fold after you called that, and when you do hit it, I think most of the time I'd rather double up against a guy that was trying to steal or something than have some guy fold when he misses (which will be.... Umm... 1 in a million times?) - just push (because can not see folding this short stacked).

I really don't see the point of doing a stop n go.

[/ QUOTE ]


There is VERY little point. However VERY little is better than none. There is zero point in pushing preflop because they will call 100% of the time. If you call preflop and put in your last 130 postflop, they will call 99.9% of the time

(actually the number is a lot less, these people on PartyPoker can shock you with their idiocy. How many times a day does someone post a thread called "Dumbest fold in history, that highlights a ridiculous fold someone made in a giant pot". How many times do people have to do this before you actually realize it WILL happen on very rare occasions.")

Your comments show a huge gap in your logic as you are vehemently advocating a play for absolutely no reason and with zero strategical advantages for the play compared to the other option. If your opponent is stealing with 98s and decides to fold a flop of AJ5, you are gaining a lot by making this play. I admit they will almost never fold, but almost never is always better than never.

[valenzuela]

this thread is almost meaningless. Almost because u gain such a small edge by doing a stop-n-go.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread is almost meaningless. Almost because u gain such a small edge by doing a stop-n-go.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, this thread demonstrates an important way of thinking.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

Yes, but it's not meaningless in that it promotes the theory that it's better to take a very small edge than none at all. I admit that many times I've just been lazy and pushed preflop here, and also I admit that in the last 1000 sit and gos, no one has ever folded here in such a spot. They have thought for a while but ended up calling with their random 2 cards, but never actually folded.

Anyway every time I push preflop I remind myself of the minutely small amount of EV I'm giving up for no reason.

[valenzuela]

I would push if it was my turn on another table.

[Al P]

[ QUOTE ]
It's about squeezing every edge you can. Pushing instead of Stop and go means that you don't understand how you can get hands to fold on the flop that your opponents wouldn't have folded preflop.

This is worth a lot of equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy you replied to said that pushing was pointless but a Stop N Go would have a chance of success.

You then go on to say that he has a fundamental flaw in his thinking of the game?

[curtains]

Yeah sometimes thats a reason for not worrying about it.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's about squeezing every edge you can. Pushing instead of Stop and go means that you don't understand how you can get hands to fold on the flop that your opponents wouldn't have folded preflop.

This is worth a lot of equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy you replied to said that pushing was pointless but a Stop N Go would have a chance of success.

You then go on to say that he has a fundamental flaw in his thinking of the game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Willing to bet he meant to respond to someone else

[Scuba Chuck]

The difference between recognizing that a StopNGo is the best play vs. pushing preflop is the difference between an amateur and someone who understands that you want to maximize every small edge you have. If there is only a 1% chance of a fold postflop (i.e., think if villain has 22), then that is an edge you must maximize. Can I get a "Do you see why?"

Scuba

[pergesu]

Does anyone else here feel that when the villain raises, leaving OP with only 130 chips, he actually wants a call and there's zero chance of him laying down pre/postflop?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else here feel that when the villain raises, leaving OP with only 130 chips, he actually wants a call and there's zero chance of him laying down pre/postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]



Not a chance in hell. He's not sitting there calculating how much the BB will have after his raise. He's deciding to raise and simply decides to min raise. Don't give them too much credit for thinking about such things. Of course there is almost no chance he folds on the flop, we all understand that.