JJ mid-game

[11t]

15+1 Turbo on stars

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t2085)
CO (t1425)
Hero (t1225)
SB (t1165)
BB (t3755)
UTG (t1405)
UTG+1 (t1560)
MP1 (t880)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t150, MP2 folds.

Flop: (t475) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t3555 (All-In)</font>, Hero...

[LethalRose]

huge overbet..Id probably fold depending on read of opponent.

[lastchance]

Call. He could have a heart, he could have top pair, he could be stone cold bluffing. You've only got t1000 behind, I think the pot's big enough to call.

[Maulik]

I'd call, it would be nice if you had a flush draw too; even if its only Jack high, but call, he didn't re-raise you preflop

[Blarg]

I'd fold it. JJ isn't that strong, and you'll probably have better opportunities later. There's a good chance you're ahead here, but not so good that it's worth risking your entire stack. There's a good chance any heart, ace, K, Q, the Jh, any 9, 5, or 4 could beat you, as well as a low card making a wheel for someone who has Ace of hearts plus a 2 or a 3. There are even other possibilities relating to the middle straight. There are a heck of a lot of cards out there that could beat you if they hit the felt.

I would have only bet 3x the BB to start. With JJ I don't mind chasing a few people out of the pot to narrow the field, but it loses so often that I don't want to commit any more money to the hand than I have to before seeing the flop, especially as my bet doesn't close the action.

Additionally, it's very early in the tourney to be committing 16% of your stack so speculatively.

[Walter Pullis]

Fold. He has flopped a low flush

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold it. JJ isn't that strong, and you'll probably have better opportunities later. There's a good chance you're ahead here, but not so good that it's worth risking your entire stack. There's a good chance any heart, ace, K, Q, the Jh, any 9, 5, or 4 could beat you, as well as a low card making a wheel for someone who has Ace of hearts plus a 2 or a 3. There are even other possibilities relating to the middle straight. There are a heck of a lot of cards out there that could beat you if they hit the felt.

I would have only bet 3x the BB to start. With JJ I don't mind chasing a few people out of the pot to narrow the field, but it loses so often that I don't want to commit any more money to the hand than I have to before seeing the flop, especially as my bet doesn't close the action.

Additionally, it's very early in the tourney to be committing 16% of your stack so speculatively.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, this isn't omaha, your oponent can only really be helped by some subset of all those cards. i think i'd probably call here and expect to be seeing a naked ace of hearts or naked king of hearts. this would probably be fairly opponent dependent, and i've clearly folded here before. eh, on second thought, without the Jh in my hand, i might fold it, since when you're not shown a naked high heart (which i think is what you see the majority of the time) you see a set a bunch of the time here. i hate the read of "he has a small flush."

citanul

[curtains]

Easy call IMO. Folding is ridiculous, its a $15 turbo for christsake.

[Blarg]

Well by definition he can only be helped by some subset of cards. That's true no matter what cards someone holds.

The thing is, that subset is very large here when you think about his likely cards. If you weren't all-in, and a heart came on the turn -- what then? How easy would a bet or a call be, or calling a raise? Or if an ace or king hit the turn or the river? Those are probably the most likely scenarios that would matter, and they're not farfetched ones. And, like you said, you could already be facing a set, too.

Even though I think there's a reasonable likelihood that you're going against an ace or king of hearts and have the better hand, there are better fights to be had than this one. A whole lot of turn and river cards take your stack here.

This strikes me as a matter of keeping perspective on comparative advantages. Winning this particular hand would be great, but you could easily have a comparatively bigger advantage, or even a number of them, later. JJ seems a lot to risk a whole tourney on, facing a monotone flop with straight possibilities, when you might actually already be beaten and don't really have any outs.

[curtains]

Folding is really weak. The chance that you are beaten with zero outs is almost nil. The chance that you are ahead is very high. The chance that you are currently ahead AND have the best draw is also reasonable. You are playing giant idiots in a $15 turbo sit and go where the blinds escalate every 5 minutes. Folding is so so bad here.

[Blarg]

The best draw? His outs? You mean his two-outer to another jack? Because he doesn't have the jack of hearts and there's no other draw on the board that his jacks fit into. When it comes to draws and outs, he's about as close to having none as you get.

And even giant idiots get good cards sometimes, too.

I've never played a turbo, and don't know what those games are like, so maybe I'm speaking out of school.

It just seems to me that JJ vs. a monotone flop with straight possibilities and no backdoor possibilities for the JJ isn't all that strong a hand. Even if he's ahead, he's got nowhere to go, and is looking at a nasty flop.

It seems hard to imagine better opportunities not coming up elsewhere.

[curtains]

Jesus I'm delusional, I swore one of the jacks was a heart. I was reinfored when I read citanul say something about how he'd fold if he didn't have a heart, thus I was assuming he did have a heart here. Anyway sorry, this makes it a much much tougher decision and folding is clearly reasonable. SORRY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!