KQs vs. an absolute rock...standard?

[imported_smoove]

<font color="blue">SB was 3/3 after maybe 50 hands at this time. I put him on either AA or KK. I suspect this "Rock" is actually better than a rock, but playing supertight while bonuswhoring.</font>

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

[Shillx]

I don't like it.

[aK13]

I like the flop raise, although you have to fairly certain he won't 3bet and blast away this field for you. You're trapping the field for another bet for your flush, and possibly a free card. What would you do if you didn't flop your 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gifs (same board, but rainbow)? What if the flop was Kxx rainbow?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean Cousin It from the Aadams Family? I love that guy!

But, dude, be polite...capitalize his name. Just like Lurch, Thing, and all the rest.

[Buckmulligan]

If he were really truly that much of a rock, I don't like the raise, fine, but I wouldnt let this read discourage me from raising that flop.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

I like it against anyone other than a super rock, unless rocks are THAT passive with AA.

[MrWookie47]

I guess I don't see what's not to like. Hero has an equity edge against 4 players even if you give him zero outs for his pairs, and even if SB 3bets, the other two villains have already shown a willingness to call 2 more bets after calling one. Are you worried about killing action when you hit, or what am I missing?

[SoftcoreRevolt]

You must remember the tendency of cold donkers to donk much more often preflop when they are getting 5 cards for their play rather than two on the flop. Also I think it's awesome SB led out after the flush card. With such passiveness on the flop you'd think he'd be scared shitless of a flush after the free card play.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm missing something /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[imported_smoove]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you didn't flop your 2 s (same board, but rainbow)? What if the flop was Kxx rainbow?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was prepared to drop it on the flop short of a flush draw or a good straight draw, probably. I don't think I would have stuck around with Kxx rainbow.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm missing something /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

if he's a rock, why raise the river? i think that's what is not liked about it. he's calling with a better hand and folding a worse hand. so the bet does nothing.

and i think you lose a lot of value by raising the flop. is there something wrong with letting him continue to bet into you and get overcalls on the flop and turn?

[Shillx]

Err it is more complex then that given that you have a bettor and a caller. I have no problem with the river raise given the read (which is questionable at best). Anyone who is watching this hand knows that we have a flush when the 3rd /images/graemlins/heart.gif hits the river, so his river bet is scary since the only hand that he "should" have is the nut flush. So if we really knew that he was a rock, we should just call on the river. But since he is a "fake rock" so to speak, giving him credit for the nut flush seems weak. He could easily just be betting out of spite since we took the free card.

Anyway, the street that I don't like is the flop. It is easy to say that it is for value, but what if the "rock" 3-bets and then everyone else folds? So much for value, and since we read him for having AA-QQ + AKs, we will often times get 3-bet on this kind of a board. Now of course, the flop caller might call two more bets but is it really a chance that we want to take? IOW, lets say that we call the flop and make the flush on the turn. Now the rock will bet, two people will probably call and then we can raise with the 2nd nuts. I really like raising with the flush a lot more then I like raising with a flush draw when I can potentially trap 2 people in the middle for big bets.

Okay, rant over.

Brad

[IPSC]

*blind post*

I don't think you should take the free card on the turn. This hand isn't just a drawing hand to the second nut flush. You have two strong overcards. If you hit your K or Q on the river you would like to win this large pot.

[istewart]

Oh, I see. I wasn't really attuned to how much of a rock this guy was /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ArturiusX]

I think by raising the flop, you have to bet the turn. But, I wouldn't raise the flop.

[afk]

Absolute rock 3 bets preflop and bets into the field on the flop. I really don't like this flop raise. I think you'll see SB 3bet and potentially scare off the field which strips you of all the value this raise would usually have.

Preflop, turn and river are fine with me.

[IPSC]

I think I get it now, thanks for the explanation.

[jookiebrown]

what was that turn play? Go after 'em. When a rock shows weakness I pull out a hammer. I don't check behind here. Rocks can be bluffed.

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
I think by raising the flop, you have to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I think a turn bet would be pretty bad here actually. The flop raise got him a free card with nothing but a draw (and luckily didn't get him 3bet on the flop). I think if you were going to raise this flop against a different type of player the whole idea would be to get a free card if you did not improve (edit: along with some value on the flop).

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
what was that turn play? Go after 'em. When a rock shows weakness I pull out a hammer. I don't check behind here. Rocks can be bluffed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've completely ignored the two other players in the pot. Betting the turn is bad. Also, this rock 3bet preflop and bet into the field on the flop. I'm giving him credit for an actual hand that we don't have a great chance of being ahead of.

[imported_smoove]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what was that turn play? Go after 'em. When a rock shows weakness I pull out a hammer. I don't check behind here. Rocks can be bluffed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You've completely ignored the two other players in the pot. Betting the turn is bad. Also, this rock 3bet preflop and bet into the field on the flop. I'm giving him credit for an actual hand that we don't have a great chance of being ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and I really did put this guy on AA or KK. I'm not sure why he didn't 3 bet me on the flop. He did admit to having KK after the hand and actually told me he thought I had raised for a free card (but probably didn't realize it until I showed my hand).

[parappa]

This looks completely standard to me.