Gary Sheffield, future HOF'er?

[MrX]

Gary Sheffield, does he make the hall of fame?

36 yrs old and has 421 homers already.

Please discuss.

[Skipbidder]

I think that homeruns hit during this time period will be discounted. This will hurt him. BBWAA Electors certainly pay attention to personality. It may cost Sheffield that he was such a huge tool in Milwaukee.

[KungFuSandwich]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that homeruns hit during this time period will be discounted. This will hurt him. BBWAA Electors certainly pay attention to personality. It may cost Sheffield that he was such a huge tool in Milwaukee.

[/ QUOTE ]
Has this changed?

[Jack of Arcades]

Sheffield is a butcher in right which has hurt his value a lot the past 6 or so years. It's the same with Manny.

[The Armchair]

Should Sheff make the hall? It's close, but no. Seven time All Star, top 10 in MVP voting five times, top 5 three times. He has one Triple Crown point (leading the league in a TC category) over his career, which is a severe strike against him. It doesn't get any better if you give credit for top five finishes -- Sheffield would then have a mere seven points.

For context, Juan Gonazalez -- a year younger and about as many HRs -- has fewer all star games (3) but two MVPs (and wasn't an All Star during his 1986 MVP year). JuanGone also came in the top 5 two other times and one top 10 finish. His Triple Crown points are 3 and 10, depending on how you count it.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Sheffield is a butcher in right which has hurt his value a lot the past 6 or so years. It's the same with Manny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheffield is beter than Manny in the field. Hell, anyone is better than Manny. But both make the Hall, I suspect. Sheff is a perennial MVP candidate, Manny one of the best hitters of his generation.

[BretWeir]

Sheff's range in right isn't great, but he's got a great arm. Plus he hits for better average than a lot of sluggers.

Even so, I doubt he'll get into the Hall -- especially since he's tangentially involved in the steriods controversy. That said, if he has a couple more years like the last two, he might have a shot.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Even so, I doubt he'll get into the Hall -- especially since he's tangentially involved in the steriods controversy.

[/ QUOTE ]

VERY tangentially. Really, I think that might be overlooked. I just looked at his carreer and it looks like you're right, he probably needs another 2 season like the last 2. But that's not out of the question, and it looks like this seaosn should be on par with last year.

Thing about Sheffield is that while he's brash and cocky, the guy backs it up with both numbers and heart. He does not miss games. Even last year when his should was fuct, he was talking about retiring after the season but refused to take a cortisone shot b/c he didn't want to miss games.

[Uston]

Thing about Sheffield is that while he's brash and cocky, the guy backs it up with both numbers and heart.

Yeah, kinda like how he made the following comment after game three of the 2004 ALCS before going 1-for-17 for the rest off the series.

"They're a walking disaster. They act like they're tough, how they care so much about winning, but it's all a front. They're just a bunch of characters."

[Dead]

If he gets to 500, then he is a lock.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Thing about Sheffield is that while he's brash and cocky, the guy backs it up with both numbers and heart.

Yeah, kinda like how he made the following comment after game three of the 2004 ALCS before going 1-for-17 for the rest off the series.

"They're a walking disaster. They act like they're tough, how they care so much about winning, but it's all a front. They're just a bunch of characters."

[/ QUOTE ]

“I’m not sure I can think of any scenario more enjoyable than making 55,000 people from New York shut up,”
- Curt Schilling

Curt proceeded to give up 5 earned runs in 3 innings.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thing about Sheffield is that while he's brash and cocky, the guy backs it up with both numbers and heart.

Yeah, kinda like how he made the following comment after game three of the 2004 ALCS before going 1-for-17 for the rest off the series.

"They're a walking disaster. They act like they're tough, how they care so much about winning, but it's all a front. They're just a bunch of characters."

[/ QUOTE ]

“I’m not sure I can think of any scenario more enjoyable than making 55,000 people from New York shut up,”
- Curt Schilling

Curt proceeded to give up 5 earned runs in 3 innings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he could've made Yankees fans shut up even with a perfect game.

[Dead]

Someone on fantasy just traded Beckett for BJ Ryan. What a stupid trade.

[Uston]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thing about Sheffield is that while he's brash and cocky, the guy backs it up with both numbers and heart.

Yeah, kinda like how he made the following comment after game three of the 2004 ALCS before going 1-for-17 for the rest off the series.

"They're a walking disaster. They act like they're tough, how they care so much about winning, but it's all a front. They're just a bunch of characters."

[/ QUOTE ]

“I’m not sure I can think of any scenario more enjoyable than making 55,000 people from New York shut up,”
- Curt Schilling

Curt proceeded to give up 5 earned runs in 3 innings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, the Yankees got him good, didn't they?

[Dead]

Just like this year.

It's not your fault that you have the fattest staff in the majors, with the addition of Wells. You're going to have back and knee problems when that happens.

[Uston]

Fortunately, they'll only need either Wells or Schilling to win the AL East. They'll only need both if they want to win by more than six games.

[Dead]

How can the Red Sox win the AL East if the Yankees are going to?

Wells sucks. The Yankees owned him on Opening Night. We're going to destroy you in the upcoming series.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone on fantasy just traded Beckett for BJ Ryan. What a stupid trade.

[/ QUOTE ]

BJ Ryan > all closers not named Billy Wagner. That may or may not be a good trade, you'd have to consider the type of league and the roster of each team. I wouldn't trade BJR for basically anyone in my league, since I already own Wagner.

[Dead]

BJ Ryan < Mo

Mo just had a bad start, but he's returning to his usual dominant form.

But don't worry, we will get BJ Ryan or Gagne in the next couple of years

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
BJ Ryan < Mo

[/ QUOTE ]

BJ Ryan has 29 K in 19 IP, with only 6 walks. The man flat out overpowers hitters. He is nasty. Not to mention a lefty, which from what I understand, is difficult to be as a closer.

[Dead]

The guy has a career 3.79 era, and he's already almost 30. A 3.79 era as a reliever is nothing to brag about.

2001 25 BAL AL 2 4 61 0 0 0 9 2 53.0 47 31 25 6 30 54 2 0 237 4.25 4.21 99
2002 26 BAL AL 2 1 67 0 0 0 13 1 57.7 51 31 30 7 33 56 4 4 252 4.68 4.38 9

Neither are those years. He had one good year last year, but even that year wasn't nearly as good as Mo's.

And your sample size is way too small.

[Dead]

Look at this [censored]:

Mo:

10 Lg Div Series 7-3 25 0 0.23 2-0 13 0 0 39.0 16 1 3 27
7 Lg Champ Series 6-1 25 0 0.93 4-0 10 0 0 38.7 28 4 5 29
6 World Series 4-2 20 0 1.16 2-1 9 0 0 31.0 24 4 6 29
23 Postseason Ser 17-6 70 0 0.75 8-1 32 0 0 108.7 68 9 14 85

2.43 career ERA.

He's allowed 9 runs in 108 innings in the postseason. And the BEST teams play in the postseason, the top 4 from each league.

Mo has had a better career than every other closer in the game. And it's NOT CLOSE.

[tbach24]

He was nasty last season and that is because he fixed his control. Look at the BB/9 over the past 3 seasons (before this one which is <3 BB/9)

2002: 5.12
2003: 4.86
2004: 3.6

His control has improved drastically, and with it, his ability to beat batters has.

[Dead]

You're just being foolish.

Mo is better than BJ Ryan. It's not close. Look above.

[tbach24]

There is no question that Mo has had a better career and probably the best of any RP. But his control is off. 4.81 BB/9 this year, when in the past seasons he's been at <3. It is very important for Mo to have good control because he isn't much of a K pitcher for a closer, so that's why his numbers are faulty.

[Dead]

He's toned it down in his past couple of outings.

The BB/9 will fall down to his normal range as the season progresses.

And you don't think Mo is a K pitcher? Mo strikes out the side in the 9th more often than you think.

But here is the real Yankee pitching story: Mike Mussina. Everyone on here said that he sucks and that he is done. Meanwhile, Mike is sitting pretty with a 3.46 ERA and a record of 4-2, proving that last year was an anomaly.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
He's toned it down in his past couple of outings.

The BB/9 will fall down to his normal range as the season progresses.

And you don't think Mo is a K pitcher? Mo strikes out the side in the 9th more often than you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last two seasons he's gone <1 K/IP. He's actually only been over it 2x in his career. People will make contact vs. him, but it won't be good.

[Dead]

Mo doesn't need to be a K pitcher anyway because 90% of the time when someone hits the cutter, it's either going to be a pop up or a soft grounder.

Righties are only batting .111 against Mo this year.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Sheff's range in right isn't great, but he's got a great arm. Plus he hits for better average than a lot of sluggers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Range is worth a lot more than arm. Manny's got a pretty good arm, too. Both are really bad in the field. I'm talking about 20 runs below average bad.

[Dead]

They make up for it with their offense. How does Vlad's range compare?

[Jack of Arcades]

It really takes away a lot of their value, though. It puts them on par with someone like Carlos Lee.

[tbach24]

Wow, great wiffle ball game for me. 4 IP, 2 outs per IP game. I get 8 k's and only give up one hit. I win 1-0 on a home run I hit in the 4th. My slider is the best pitch ever thrown. Unfortunately, my fastball, sinker and cutter need work. Fcuk the curveball and knuckler, tehy're for losers who I crush.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
If he gets to 500, then he is a lock.

[/ QUOTE ]

Up to now, no major leaguer has ever retired with 500 homers and not made the hall. Think about this, though...it'll take Sheff another 2 or 3 years to reach .500 (barring injury). If he retires in 3 years, he's another 5 years from Hall eligibility. So we're talking 8 years minimum before voters have to decide whether or not he's eligible. Will reaching 500 homers be considered a "lock" in 8 years? The way balls are flying out of parks these days, I have my doubts. The new bar might be 600 in 8 years.

500 might be considered as a marginal qualification to get into the HOF in 2013...but with the other baggage that Sheff is carrying around, it might not be enough.

[Vince Young]

How do you strike out 8/9 batters in wiffle ball?

[Dead]

Haha, if Sheff gets to 475 I think that he will get in.

Look at his other offensive stats. They are fantastic.

And look at this:

1992-NL-3-0.61
1996-NL-6-0.29
2000-NL-9-0.16
2002-NL-17-0.01
2003-NL-3-0.55
2004-AL-2-0.65

[Voltron87]

Sheffield is the definition of a bordline HOF candidate.

[Jack of Arcades]

Jim Rice.

[Uston]

[ QUOTE ]
Haha, if Sheff gets to 475 I think that he will get in.

Look at his other offensive stats. They are fantastic.

And look at this:

1992-NL-3-0.61
1996-NL-6-0.29
2000-NL-9-0.16
2002-NL-17-0.01
2003-NL-3-0.55
2004-AL-2-0.65

[/ QUOTE ]

1975-AL-3-0.46
1977-AL-4-0.42
1978-AL-1-0.90
1979-AL-5-0.32
1982-AL-19-0.03
1983-AL-4-0.38
1984-AL-13-0.03
1986-AL-3-0.61

And this guy isn't in the HOF.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim Rice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually agree with this, although I hate the prick. His numbers justify induction.

[Dead]

See post above.

Sheffield will also end up having more hits and already has more HR's than Rice.

Maybe Rice was hurt by the fact that he played 25% of his games at DH.

[Jack of Arcades]

B-Ref's comps for Sheff are interesting. 1 HOFer, a few who will get in, and a few borderline ones.

HOFers: Snider
Future HOFers: Griffey, Bagwell, Thomas
Borderline: Rice, Walker, Murphy, Bob Johnson, Ellis Burks.

[Jack of Arcades]

Rice is hurt by the fact that

1) His best season was still not as good as 5 of Sheffield's
2) He sucked after 33.

[Dead]

Biggio will get in as well as Bagwell, with one more good season after this one.

[Jack of Arcades]

Biggio's been a lock since 1999.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Rice is hurt by the fact that

1) His best season was still not as good as 5 of Sheffield's
2) He sucked after 33.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that Sheffield is a lock if he gets to 2500H/500HR.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Biggio's been a lock since 1999.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's a 2B?

[Jack of Arcades]

Because he's the 5th best 2B of all time.

[Dead]

Who's ahead of him?

I count 5 better, probably.

1) Hornsby
2) Morgan
3) Collins
4) Alomar
5) Sandberg

You think that Biggio is better than which of the last two?

[Jack of Arcades]

Both.

1) Rogers Horsnby
2) Joe Morgan
3) Eddie Collins
4) Nap Lajoie (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lajoina01.shtml)
5) Craig Biggio

[Dead]

I forgot about Lajoie. Ok I will give you him, but I don't think that Biggio is better than Alomar or Sandberg. He's certainly not as good defensively as either of them was.

And Lajoie was awful defensively.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
but I don't think that Biggio is better than Alomar or Sandberg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I don't think that Biggio is better than Alomar or Sandberg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, well... you know, That's just like your opinion, man!

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

Do you think Smoltz will/should get in?

[istewart]

I hate baseball threads between Jack and Dead.

Because I must read every word that is said. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jack of Arcades]

Smoltz will get in, and I know this because everyone says he will. Read any article about Smoltz, a good bunch refer to him as a "Future Hall of Famer John Smoltz"

I'd vote for him after 3 more good seasons.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you strike out 8/9 batters in wiffle ball?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I got into a 6-2 count and had to pitch a soft strike because I hate giving up walks and I was too lazy to catch the pop up, so he got the triple. He made connection with 4-5 pitches the entire game. My slider was out of control good. My sinker was out of control, like legit out of control. As was my fastball.

[Dead]

What the hell is a 6-2 count?

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell is a 6-2 count?

[/ QUOTE ]

When we used to play when we were younger (before I discovered the sinker and my brother the slider) the scores were insanely high. To make up for this we made it 7 balls and 3 strikes. I use this to my full advantage (i.e try to make people chase). Did you get my PM?