My Postflop-Play is too complicated, part 1 [Archive]

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Atropos

05-14-2005, 06:28 AM

I dont know how to play hands in a way that decisions are made easy. Here are some examples:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+2 (t1130)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t740)
MP3 (t735)
CO (t895)
Hero (t565)
SB (t785)
BB (t750)
UTG (t890)
UTG+1 (t755)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, 2 folds, Hero raises to t85, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls t70, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t70.

Flop: (t292.50) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets [t655] , Hero ???

- The Preflop-Raise was a tilt-move, my normal Preflop-Stats for the first level are 12.59 VPIP / 1.5% PFR. Is that too tight? What should I do at the flop? Of course a Fold seems obvious, but what hands would he open-push with here? Certainly not TT, ATo and stuff, the 98 draw seems much more likely. But even against that draw I'm only a small favorite and UTG+2 could have something too.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t800)
MP2 (t705)
MP3 (t745)
CO (t1230)
Button (t775)
SB (t785)
BB (t620)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t770)
UTG+2 (t770)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, Hero calls t15, MP2 raises to t30, 4 folds, BB calls t15, Hero calls t15.

Flop: (t97.50) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets t35, BB folds, Hero calls t35.

Turn: (t167.50) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t55, Hero calls t55.

River: (t277.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t80, MP2 calls t80.

Final Pot: t437.50

My read on him was that he had no Ace. How do I make him fold or shouldnt I try it at all?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t825)
MP2 (t855)
MP3 (t785)
CO (t865)
Button (t775)
SB (t770)
BB (t755)
Hero (t785)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t785)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises to t30, MP1 calls t30, 4 folds, SB calls t20, 1 fold, Hero calls t15.

Flop: (t132.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (t132.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets t15, Hero calls t15, UTG+2 raises to t30, MP1 folds, SB calls t15, Hero calls t15.

River: (t222.50) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players) converter doesnt convert:
SB bets 50, I raise 125, UTG+2 raises 350, SB folds, I push

Final Pot: t222.50

If a Preflop-Raiser checks the uncontested Flop, it usually means:
a) He hit a monster hand like a set or 2 pairs
b) He got 2 Overcards like AKo and missed the flop.

The rest of the hand of course gets as ugly as it gets. Should I play the flop/turn differently?

Atropos

05-14-2005, 06:39 AM

Here are some 15/30 Hands. In general, the higher the blinds, the worse I seem to play. Only at 50/100 it gets better because I dont play postflop anymore /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t800)
UTG (t385)
UTG+1 (t450)
MP1 (t955)
MP2 (t760)
Hero (t1135)
CO (t1000)
Button (t755)
SB (t1760)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t30, 1 fold, MP1 raises to t125, 1 fold, Hero calls t125, 4 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t325) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets t175, Hero ???

I hate it, should I really fold this every single time?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t2225)
UTG (t900)
UTG+1 (t965)
UTG+2 (t1710)
MP1 (t955)
MP2 (t660)
MP3 (t415)
Hero (t975)
Button (t1085)
SB (t110)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, Hero raises to t135, Button calls t135, 2 folds, MP1 folds.

Flop: (t345) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t100, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t545) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t200, Hero calls t200.

River: (t945) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players) I push all-in

Final Pot: t945

He autocalled my preflop-raise in 0.1 seconds, thats why I put him on either Monster/small pair. Is there a better way to play the turn/river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t535)
UTG+1 (t1185)
MP1 (t935)
MP2 (t1185)
MP3 (t690)
Hero (t730)
Button (t660)
SB (t1420)
BB (t660)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t30, 3 folds, MP3 calls t30, Hero raises to t100, 3 folds, UTG calls t70, MP3 folds.

Flop: (t275) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets t95, Hero raises all-in [t630] , UTG calls [t340]

Is this the best possible way to make him fold a small piece of the board?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1920)
SB (t450)
BB (t2675)
UTG (t1510)
Hero (t1445)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero calls t30, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t90) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets t30, BB folds, Hero raises to t75, SB raises to t150, Hero calls t75.

River: (t390) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t125, Hero calls t125.

Final Pot: t640

Checking the flop made this too complicated. Should I bet 1/2 - 2/3 pot with vulnerable top pair hands like this?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t2230)
UTG+1 (t895)
MP1 (t355)
MP2 (t710)
CO (t810)
Hero (t800)
SB (t985)
BB (t1215)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 raises to t100, 3 folds, Hero calls t100, 2 folds, UTG calls t70.

Flop: (t345) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets [t795] , Hero ???

Can/Should I fold this?

DasLeben

05-14-2005, 06:41 AM

It seems to me that you're playing way too loose in Hands 1 and 2. I fold both preflop.

The slowplay in Hand 3 is fine, but I raise the turn when the Q hits. Sucks for you on the river, but that's a great place to get your money in.

Atropos

05-14-2005, 06:45 AM

Now level 3, by far my suckiest level. I dont know how to play when the blinds get 25/50. Small Pocket Pairs dont seem to get enough implied odds in early positions, and every 2-3 BB raise makes one pot-commited or costs all fold equity for later if one folds an uncontested flop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1293)
UTG (t815)
UTG+1 (t520)
MP1 (t630)
MP2 (t1480)
MP3 (t405)
Hero (t1007)
Button (t794)
SB (t1056)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t150, 3 folds, Hero calls t150, 3 folds.

Flop: (t375) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t125, Hero raises to t400, UTG+1 calls [t245] t125.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t615)
MP2 (t1225)
CO (t1360)
Button (t1245)
SB (t815)
Hero (t1090)
UTG (t1650)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, Button raises to t100, 1 fold, Hero calls t50.

Flop: (t225) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t50, Hero calls t50.

Turn: (t325) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t185, Button raises to t370, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t880

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t815)
CO (t2135)
Button (t540)
SB (t1240)
Hero (t570)
UTG (t1835)
MP1 (t865)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t50, 4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t150) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets t50, SB folds, Hero calls t50.

Turn: (t250) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t250, UTG raises to t500, Hero calls [t270] t250.

River: (t1000) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t1000

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t530)
Button (t705)
SB (t640)
BB (t1175)
UTG (t945)
UTG+1 (t730)
Hero (t770)
MP2 (t1440)
MP3 (t1065)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, MP3 calls t150, 2 folds, SB calls t125, 1 fold.

Flop: (t500) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t125, MP3 raises to t400, SB folds, Hero calls [t495] t125, MP3 calls t220.

Turn: (t1245) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

River: (t1245) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t1245

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2500)
BB (t295)
Hero (t955)
MP (t2315)
CO (t455)
Button (t1480)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls t50, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets t100, BB folds, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t350) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t90, Hero raises to t180, SB calls t90.

River: (t710) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t225, Hero calls t225.

Final Pot: t1160

Atropos

05-14-2005, 06:51 AM

My main problems seem to be:
a) I dont have very good reads. Most of the time I know if I'm ahead or behind. But not more, I have big problems putting opponents on an exact hand. Probably because I dont have a good system for Notes taking when 4-tabling. How and what do you note? Is there something like http://teamfu.freeshell.org/player_notes.html
for Nolimit too?

b) I dont understand proper bet sizes though I have played tons of NL 6-max hands. I almost never know if I should bet 1/2 pot, full pot, reraise 3 x opening bet etc...

c) I seem to be too slow at math. I can compute the odds for draws etc... instantly and make an educated guess if the implied odds are there. But if I want to help my hand reading with bayesian math I'm lost because it simply takes too much time for me to compute everything. Is there a trick to do it faster or just much practicing?

Atropos

05-14-2005, 06:56 AM

Yeah the K7s I normally fold as well. I was a bit on tilt because the cards were falling against me all the time.

The QJs I disagree, its only 15 chips and a loose game and it is suited /images/graemlins/smile.gif If the raise would have been bigger I would have folded, but these minraises are often fishy but often monsters too. I'm sure a good player could make QJs +EV here, but I should probably fold it /images/graemlins/wink.gif

In the 3rd hand, what do I do if I get reraised all-in? Against these opponents I just cant rule out KJo and will make a bad call/fold every time. Probably still the way to go.

I hoped to get an easy river full house, but that was wishful thinking...

DasLeben

05-14-2005, 07:34 AM

With hand 2, I see your point, but I still don't like a limp there. At a deeper stacked structure it's fine, but I just hate bleeding chips early (even if it's just t15) to see flops with marginal hands at a Party tourney. I'm generally folding anything below mid-pockets and AQo in level 1 in this position.

I think hand 3 would turn pretty tricky if someone were to reraise you all-in on the turn. Since nobody bet the flop, KJ could be hanging around. Depending on the buyin, I'd probably call. It depends though. While I still think a slowplay is fine, you might consider sticking out a half-pot bet on the flop next time.

zaphod

05-14-2005, 07:46 AM

Yes you are right. Your post flop play are WAY to complicated. You should learn to fold preflop.
I think you would do much better if you just folds your 30 first hands than the way you play now.

1) No you were not tiltiling a little bit. This is big time tilt. Ok, you hit second pair, that is not something you can call an all in with!

2) No, QJ suited is a bad hand at level 1. Fold preflop.

3)Ok, you can call this one preflop /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I think the check on the flop is ok, but it did not go according to plan when everybody checks. On the turn I would come out betting(70% of the pot or something). You probably have the best hand still, but it is vurnable. When you only call the 15 bid, you should at least raise when somebody raises to 30.
When I hit my pocket pair on the flop, I will always try to get all in. If somebody beats me that’s life.

Atropos

05-14-2005, 08:09 AM

"You should learn to fold preflop.
I think you would do much better if you just folds your 30 first hands than the way you play now."

I already learnt to fold, Im quite an experienced player even though I suck at postflop play. At the moment Im trying to play as many hands as possible that might still be slightly +EV, since if you drop out early you can start a new Sit&Go and it doesnt hurt your hourly rate too much.

I just started playing again so my actual sample size is only 55 Sit&Gos but on average I lose -33 Chips until I reach level 4. That is quite sucky because good players should make a profit in levels 1-3, but still costs less than folding every hand.

"Ok, you hit second pair, that is not something you can call an all in with!"

Why not? Which hands would he play in this manner, open-pushing a board without any dangerous draws except an open-end straight draw with 98o, but it is highly unlikely that I would raise with it.

It just seemed like a bluff at that time, or a semi-bluff with the OESD. Against OESD I'm slightly ahead and there is some dead money in the pot too.

pergesu

05-14-2005, 08:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
At the moment Im trying to play as many hands as possible that might still be slightly +EV, since if you drop out early you can start a new Sit&Go and it doesnt hurt your hourly rate too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be a skilled postflop player to play with a lot of marginal hands (which I realize is what you're trying to become - but you said you suck, and the hh's verify). If you've got something that's working for you, why screw with it?

Atropos

05-14-2005, 08:28 AM

Because I want to reach the 200s until the end of the year. There it will not be possible for me to fold every hand and make some profit + some of the hands dont seem as bad to me as you all think, thats why I didnt include the results.

Madd

05-14-2005, 08:49 AM

#1 Why can't villain have AT? Or JJ? You need to have notes on him that he only makes this move with a draw if you want to call profitably.

#2 I don't like the limp for another reason than the other posters stated. You open-limp and you are out of position if somebody behind decides to play, too. If you are in the CO or on the button after one or two limpers I can see a preflop call.
Postflop is fine IMO.

#3 I don't like slowplaying sets very much. I would have bet 1/2 pot at the flop and the same after the turn. With a boat I try to bring all my chips into the middle. If you're behind - bad luck.

There is nothing wrong in trying to learn to play well postflop. However, it should be clear that losing (only) 33 chips in the first 30 hands means winning $$$ if there are only 7 players left then.

Madd

05-14-2005, 09:00 AM

#1 You don't even have a diamond. Fold.

#2 I would have check-raised all-in at the turn.

#3 I don't raise AJo preflop, but ok. Postflop, I like it.

#4 Bet the flop (around 75).

#5 Either you fold preflop because you have the read that villain only raises with AA-QQ and AK or you go with the hand. I think you will be shown AJ more often than KK or AA here.

Madd

05-14-2005, 12:45 PM

Level 3 is my problem level, too. Here are my suggestions, but I would like to read other opinions.

#1 Unless villain is loose/fishy, fold preflop. Seriously. If he is very loose, push preflop.
Hmm, I don't know if you should fold on the flop, I think if you play the hand in the first place, then the raise is fine.

#2 There is 880 in the pot already and you have to put 185 into it. Together with the implied odds, I think this is a call.

#3 In a spot like this I like check-calling down. After the turn raise I would let it go.

#4 Push the flop.

#5 I'm helpless, too. Maybe I would have raised the flop and backed down after resistance.

adanthar

05-14-2005, 01:12 PM

1)A flop fold seems obvious because it is.

2)Yes, fold PF. This is a bigger leak in the 800 chip tournaments than it is in the 200's, but you should still fold. If you think he doesn't have an ace, you played it fine, but part of the reason you are struggling is because you're playing monkeys and you will never be able to put them on a hand.

3)Way to get the absolute least out of your set. Do you still like your hand if the river is a K, J or 8? No? Okay, raise the turn.

---

4)Yes, fold every single time.

5)Check/fold the flop or continuation bet it, whatever. Don't check call.

6)The raise is fine and really the only play to make to a bet that weak, unless you want to call the flop and push the turn.

7)Yes, bet the flop.

8)Reraise PF. Call the flop push (duh).

9)Do you have a hand? A high, you said? No folding equity, you said? Then why are you pushing?

10)I don't horribly mind the blind defense, but the flop spectacularly missed you, almost had to hit your opponent and you can check/fold it. On the turn, when you pick up a draw, why are you betting when he may let you see a cheap river, and then why are you folding getting 4:1 to see a river?

11)Why bet the pot on the turn when a t150 bet does the same thing? Anyway, once you get raised you can fold.

12)Fine.

13)No set, blind betting into 2 players, fold the flop (usually). If he's a donkey you can call, but then don't make a small turn raise he can call with anything; put him all in. Having played it this badly so far, you have no business calling the river.

You're getting way too fancy for your own good on 90% of these hands for no reason. When playing monkeys, play your hand.

Atropos

05-15-2005, 02:49 PM

1) He had Q8o and hit his Queen on the turn. I however dont know if this makes the call correct, because I wont be right like this every time. By Folding I'm down to less than 500 chips in level 1, isn't this the right time for a gamble?

2) OK, I think I will start playing tighter in early positions in unopened pots. Is this a raise/fold situation?

3) I got shown TT. The way I played the hand I probably had the biggest fold-equity against a skilled player - but these players never fold top set. Probably betting 1/2 pot on the flop is better...

4) Yeah folding seems correct to me now. Even if he has a flush-draw I'm not a big favorite.

5) Check-Calling surely isnt the best thing, but I thought I could stack him if I hit a T, and this + the % of the times that AK is good here made me call his bet. In the End he had KJo and had me reverse dominated from the flop on - quite ugly.

6) Okay then. He had 98o and won, but thats poker.

7) Betting the flop is probably easier. He had Q4o...

8) I called the flop push too and was very surprised to see AA.

9) ok
10) no idea
12) ok
13) SB had 53s