Michael Vick

[Ryan_21]

Im not a Falcons fan, but b/c of Vick I think I'm going to buy a ticket onto their banwagon.

I only have one word for this guy....WOW.

I thought he was good in a losing effort in the 99'-00' Sugar Bowl. But he was even better today. If you like football and you didnt watch him destroy the Vikings today you have to catch the highlights on ESPN tonight.

There is no doubt in my mind, that right now, he is the best athlete and player in the NFL and if he keeps doing what he's doing, he's an easy pick for MVP.

I dont know all his stats except that its his first year as a starter and he has close to 600 yards rushing, he's only thrown 3 picks all year. His team is 8-3-1 and has won 7 in a row. Wow, this guys freakin incredible.

Ryan_21

[Ed Miller]

The thing I hate most about Vick is that he plays in the NFC South with the Saints. He's going to be tearing up the Saints for the next 10 years like he did in the two games this year. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

[Clarkmeister]

He needs to learn to throw the ball if he is going to fulfill his immense potential. You need to be able to sit behind the line of scrimmage and throw the ball to win the Super Bowl, its that simple. He hasn't thrown many picks but he hasn't thrown that many TD's either, and his yardage is pathetic.

The real problem is that every time he rushes the ball he puts his career at risk. It would be a shame to see him lose multiple seasons of his career to injury, but that is what will happen eventually unless he changes his approach. I'd hate to see such huge potential go unfulfilled because of injury.

[Michael Davis]

Clarkmeister,

While I consider you accurate almost all of the time, I disagree with you here.

The reason for Michael Vick's huge potential is his running ability. He completely transforms the QB position. His creative abilities have probably given the Atlanta Falcons at least two extra wins this season. You claim that you don't want to see him risking injury because that would be a waste of potential, but I think the reason he has potential is his running ability. So for him to stop running means he loses his potential. If Vick can't run, he's not Vick, and he's not the excellent quarterback that he is right now. He may miss a few years due to injury, but this will not offset the wins he gains by playing the way he does. I think the constant cry for a pocket quarterback is outdated rubbish.

As to your claim that he has to learn how to throw the ball, I hesitatingly agree, but I do not really think it necessary for him to be a great NFL quarterback. I think it is wrong to say that one needs to drop back and throw to win the Super Bowl. While this has generally been true in the past, there has been no running threat at the QB like Vick. His throwing ability is there; he can toss a mean spiral and is at times deadly accurate. I think experience in NFL decision making as well as a better corp of receivers in the future will easily give Vick better yardage numbers and overall passing stats. Surely, you cannot ignore the fact that the guy rarely makes catastrophic mistakes to kill his team. And in a league as closely contested as the NFL, avoiding turnovers may be job #1 of quarterbacks.

I will also address your claim that Priest Holmes is the league MVP. Although I hate many sportswriters' claims that the MVP must be on a playoff contending team (and surely KC is still on the fringe, though they need a miracle), I believe that Vick has added more wins to his team this year than Holmes. When Holmes has 300 combined yards and the Chiefs still lose to Seattle, I have some real questions. I doubt if the game would have been much worse without Holmes there, because it could not have gone much worse. You may disagree with this criterion for judging an MVP, but I stick to the position that Vick has added at least two wins to the Atlanta season all by himself and Holmes has not done this for KC.

Mike

[Clarkmeister]

Hi Mike,

I is well documented that constantly scrambling like Vick does causes quite a bit of harm to your offense. The offensive line in particular cannot effectively do their job when the QB is all over the place, and are frequently caught out of position which causes sacks and penalties. Interestingly, for all of his mobility, Vick has been sacked a high number of times this year. Also, receivers who are constantly trying to cut off routes to bail out their QB are not as effective. It is very difficult for an offense to gain any sort of rythm when half the pass plays become a scramble drill.


"He may miss a few years due to injury, but this will not offset the wins he gains by playing the way he does"

In the NFL where salary cap reigns supreme, an injury in the wrong year can mean waiting 3-6 years for another window to open up. True anyone can get injured, but he is a much higher risk than even the normal stationary QB's.


"I think it is wrong to say that one needs to drop back and throw to win the Super Bowl. "

Until someone does it another way, it is not wrong, it is NFL canon law. Your contention that there haven't been mobile QB's like Vick in the league is simply wrong. They just haven't won the big game. Elway and Young didn't win until after they had stopped running all over the place. Randall Cunningham couldn't get it done. McNabb is still trying to get it done. You can laugh at this one, but Kordell was far more effective last year sitting in the pocket than 3 years prior when he was scrambling all the time. You can't say its an outdated concept until someone disproves it.

As for Preist Holmes:

That was a comment in the Other Gambling Games forum where mikelow asked "who has been more valuable to his team than Vick". I stated Preist. I wasn't casting my vote for him as league MVP, just stating I felt he is more valuable to that team than Vick, which I do believe. I also think that there are several OTHER players more valuable to their team than Vick at this moment. These would include McNabb, Favre, Gannon, Faulk, Bledsoe and Tomlinson.

As for league MVP, which is a slightly different issue, I think its too early to tell.

[Ryan_21]

I happen to agree with everything Micheal Davis said in his post above. But there are a few things I'd like to add.

Everyone criticizes Vick's throwing ability like they use to criticize Jordan's Defense. Its rediculous to say this guy cant be a pocket passer. He has the arm, the smarts, he makes all the reads, and he's only 21. If anybody thinks he cant throw they must've missed his 50 something yard perfect toss for a TD yesterday.

As for your opinion on him getting injured. I dont see why people worry about this. When he runs the ball he is no different than a running back, and nobody ever makes this statement about injury about any running backs. Just b/c he's a QB makes him more succeptable to injury than any running back in the league? Nonsense. The guys 6'1" 215lbs. He's bigger than some backs in the league. Hell, he's bigger than the starting back on his team (Dunn). For someone to make the statement that Vick is succeptable to injury when he runs the ball, they would have to say the same thing about every running back in the league.

And, as Davis pointed out about him adding wins to the Falcons season and the MVP award. In my opinion he has added more than 2 wins. Remember, they started 1-3. I think without Vick, they'd be 2-10 or 3-9 and definately no better than 4-8. For a player to have that much impact on a team, his value is undeniable.

Ryan_21

[HDPM]

Every running back in the league is susceptible. Their careers are very short on average. Terrell Davis is more the rule than the exception.

[Ryan_21]

Its still wrong to say Vick is "more" succeptable just b/c he runs the ball. And honestly what happened to Davis and guys like Jamal Anderson, Jamal Lewis, Ki Jana Carter, Garrison Hearst really IS an exception b/c their injury's have nothing really to do with getting "beat up" it was just a freak accident. Sure it can happen to anybody, but I dont think you can say Vick is more succeptable to getting beat up just b/c he runs the ball. If he averages 10 carries a game, he's going to get beat up a lot less than a running back who cares 25 times a game.

Ryan_21

[Wingnut]

"Interestingly, for all of his mobility, Vick has been sacked a high number of times this year."

Barry Sanders used to lead the league in runs for losses at the same time he was leading it in rushing yards. No risk, no reward.

[M2d]

Just a guess, but I'm not sure how much this applies. With sanders, you knew he was getting the ball. defenses could key on him, so there had to be a bunch of times where he picked up negative yardgae.

[Wingnut]

A lot of times we would get negative yardage trying to make something out of nothing. He would bounce into the hole and then bounce backwards trying to get around the line or find another hole, and get tripped up in the backfield, or a defender would be free because the offensive linemen would be blocking the defender away from where Barry was supposed to be running and towards where Barry was actually running.

Barry losing yardage was not often the case of the defense keying on him and stuffing him up the gut.

I don't hear anyone saying that Barry was not one of the best RBs ever because he had a lot of runs stopped behind the line of scrimmage. Same with Vick. It's hindsight. When he scrambles and scores on a 46-yard run in OT, he looks brilliant. But if he scrambles and loses 10 yards by getting tripped up or "caught", he looks "bad".

It's the same thing with announcers saying in the fourth quarter "I have to disagree with so-and-so going for 2 back in the first quarter. Now you're only up by 3 and a field goal can tie it.". Yes, genius, and if the try had been successful, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Ed Miller]

I assume you are talking about the Saints-Bucs game from last night... and I agree with the announcers... I didn't understand why the Saints went for 2 then. The point "EV" for a PAT is much higher than for a 2 point conversion (fewer than 40% of 2 pointers are converted I believe). In the first quarter, there is no good reason to believe that the scoring eccentricities will favor two points or one, so I think you have to go with the higher EV play. Haslett goes for 2 way too often, IMHO... and in dubious spots.

[Clarkmeister]

And thats part of the reason why Barry can never be considered a top 5 RB of all time in my book. A top 5 all-time RB simply doesn't come out when its first and goal at the 1.

[Clarkmeister]

No one that I know of, let alone me is saying he can't become a great pocket passer. In fact, he quite obviously has the ability to do so. I merely contend that he won't win championships until he does.

"Remember, they started 1-3"

Its not like they started 1-3 *without* Vick.

Also, RB's have the shortest lifespan in the league. That's part of what makes careers like Sanders, Peyton and Emmitt so amazing. Look, the more he runs the more he gets hit. The more he gets hit, the more likely he is to get knocked out. Its really that simple. At the end of the day, he is going to be too valuable to be consistently taking crazy chances.

[adios]

I don't know how much you've watch Vick play this year but I have watched him play a fair amount and IMO he does throw the ball well. I don't think that he has the greatest supporting cast in the world as in the Green Bay game Atlanta receivers dropped two sure touchdown passes which ultimately cost Atlanta that game. His QB rating is actually good and the QB rating is effected the most by TD's vs. interceptions. TD passes can be overrated especially if your team runs the ball well inside the 20 yard line and you can often score via the run instead of the pass. Favre has been criticized for years for having inflated TD pass numbers (thus his QB rating is distorted on the high side) because he throws dinky do two yard TD passes.

[Clarkmeister]

Tom, I don't care what your ratio is, 9 TD passes 11 games into the season sucks and isn't going to get the job done in the long run. And everyone has dropped TD passes. You mentioned Favre - have you seen how awful his receivers have been this year?

Are you trying to say that you'd rather have Vick than Favre right now? If so, I think its a very tough position to defend.

[Ryan_21]

Not based on age or future impact, I'd still rather have Vick than Farve right now.

Here is a qoute from Martin Fennelly of the Tampa Tribune from Tues. Dec. 3.

"Have we mentioned that Vick has one of the strongest arms in the league? The blur makes us forget that. Vick could stay in the pocket and become famous, too. That is scary."

Heres another quote from Atlanta coach Dan Reeves, who at the beginning of the season didnt want Vick to scramble.

" I eventually realized that Vick is the best athlete on any field on any Sunday"

Vick is just awsome. Like he did at VT, he's taking a mediocre team and single handedly winning.

It reminds me of another Micheal.

Ryan_21

[Clarkmeister]

Do you really think the Packers supporting cast is any better than Hot-lantas? Puh-leeze.

Ask the 32 NFL GM's who they would rather have right now for the last half of the season and I would be surprised if even one said Vick. Its really not that close yet. Favre is a top 5 all-timer in his prime. Lets get a little perspective here.

Now, in 5 years might we be mentioning Vick as a potential all-time great? Sure. But he's not there yet. Let him win a playoff game before we start annointing him the best ever.

[Ryan_21]

Dont get me wrong Clark, I'm not saying Vick is the best ever, you have to pay dues and earn that. And, in all honesty, I've always thought Farve was the best ever.

But, the reason I'd take Vick now for the last half of the season is for the simple fact that he is the best athlete on any team. And the way he's been playing lately, you simply just can't stop the guy. Also, he has that MJ like sixth sense and ability to get his teammates exited and wanting to play/win.

Ryan_21

[IrishHand]

Good Lord...someone needs to get a grip.

you simply just can't stop the guy
Right. That's why he gets sacked so much and is unable to throw for 200 yards in most games. Simply unstoppable.

he has that MJ like sixth sense and ability to get his teammates exited and wanting to play/win.
Right now, the only think Vick has in common with Jordan is that he's a professional athlete. Comparing Vick or anyone else to Jordan is pretty pointless until they've at least accomplished 1/2 as much. There have been a lot of guys who've been able to do a lot of the things that Jordan did on a regular basis, but none of them won 1/2 the titles that he did, which is really the point of any major sport. (Yes, this means that Barkely, Ewing, Stockton and Malone should go down as great players, but hardly legends. Frankly, it's embarassing that none of them ever got a ring.)

Furthermore, you might want to check with Vick's teammates before you try and read their minds. I guarantee you that his linemen and receivers hate the contstant unscripted scrambling, among other things. He's got phenomenal potential, but he's hardly a leader at this point.

Bottom line - here are Vick's NFL rankings as of today:
QB Rating: 12th
Completions: 25th
Passing yards: 23rd (behind Jon Kitna and 2 guys who didn't start the season as their team's starting QB, among others)
Yards per attempt: 9th
TDs: 26th
Ints: Tied for 1st
Sacks: 30th
Rushing: 27th

Looks to me like Vick would make a great RB, because it's pretty obvious that he's a decidedly mediocre passer. I realize he has a cannon arm, but thre are a ton of guys with cannons for arms. They're sort of like guys with mad hops in the NBA - looks nice, but doesn't mean a heck of a lot. Harold Miner can jump as high as anyone I've ever seen, but he can't score.

How about we talk in a couple years when you might have a little more evidence on your side?

Irish