When you get a piece, but not much

[Wizard0965]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (10 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Any thoughts on the play? I put the preflop raiser and UTG on high cards. Should I have folded earlier in the hand? Perhaps to the turn bet?

[grjr]

Don't know how correct it is but I would usually bet out on the flop here to see what the raiser does.

[gharp]

I tend to lead out the flop here, and call down if the pfr 3-bets (assuming no very scary cards). I'm not saying I like that line, but it's what I usually do...

[Wizard0965]

Yeah I would too with a better kicker but not with the 7. I didn't feel comfortable with so many yet to act behind me.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I would too with a better kicker but not with the 7. I didn't feel comfortable with so many yet to act behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you feel that way then I think you should fold the flop.

[deepsquat]

I think if you are going to play this hand postflop you should bet the flop. You may have the best hand, if you dont, villain will thin the field for you and increase your pot equity.

Id re-evaluate on the turn.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

Lead the flop, you have top pair. Your kicker may suck, but there are only two other tens out there, so chances are they aren't in someone else's hand. And if one is, you do at least have the seven, so rarely when someone else has a Ten you'll have them out kicked.

So chances are, you have the best hand.

So bet, call a raise, fold turn unimproved.

Let's examine the action with your check.

BB bets, so the most likely meaning is he has.. WE DON'T KNOW SINCE YOU DIDN'T BET. He might have AA-99, AK-AT, lots of things. Most likely he has overs.

He then checks the turn confirming he does in fact have overs. MP3, last to act then bets, meaning we likely have best hand since he'll bet here with a pair of 9s, 4s, and maybe even 2s, or low pockets. (If he had a higher pocket he'd have raised PF.) Slightly possible is he hit a set or two pair and has had his chance to raise the turn ruined.

No one has a Queen.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop, you have top pair. Your kicker may suck, but there are only two other tens out there, so chances are they aren't in someone else's hand. And if one is, you do at least have the seven, so rarely when someone else has a Ten you'll have them out kicked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmm... not exactly. If someone has a ten out there, it's more likely in a KT, QT, JT, or T8 combination than it is to be T5 or T3.

[ QUOTE ]
So bet, call a raise, fold turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a poor line. If you plan to fold the turn unimproved, don't bet the flop. If you're taking a convervative line, check-call one bet (because you have odds to draw to trips or two pair, especially with the backdoor flush), then check-fold unimproved. Betting the flop and taking a weak turn line together is bad news.

This is not to say that the bet is a bad play. I actually like a bet here. If we check, villain is betting 90% of the time. If we bet, villain raises maybe 75% of the time. So the best thing to happen is that villain raises to protect our hand (I probably just call the raise), or he just calls and it's basically as if he had bet it himself (in terms of offering odds to various players in the hand).

What to do on the turn depends on what happens on the flop and how many players are still around. Most often, I expect a stop-and-go to be appropriate unless it's heads up and villain is aggressive enough to bet the turn with overcards.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

Yeah, folding the turn would be a poor line, I'd fold the river UI, but got jumbled up on calling the turn and folding the river. I'll edit to avoid confusion. Anyway. Obviously if someone has a T it is likeing AT-JT, or T9. My point was that there is a good chance no one out there has a ten, and an off chance that if they do they have something like Txs and your 7 is good.

Reads really help in these sorts of situations. I don't expect a raise from villain 75% of the time, assuming he's loose passive, he'll call with AK-AJ and KQ, and maybe raise with QJs. A villain at this level who will raise with overcards usually stands out, so I'd expect the OP to note it. Players are just too honest at this level, so I like a nice simple line.

[adsman]

I don't mind the flop check - sometimes I check this, sometimes I bet. The Turn though is a blank. This is an excellent card for you. Now you have a fairly good chance of winning this hand. I either fire right out or I go for a checkraise. A checkraise here would have worked, but that is with the benefit of hindsight. We couldn't know that the BB would check and MP3 would try to pick up the pot. If you got aggressive on the Turn I would stay aggressive on the river and bet right out.

Remember that playing any two suited cards from the SB assumes that you have the ability to outplay your opponents postflop. This is the sort of hand that you can expect if you play these cards. You have to be comfortable and confident with these situations. A piece but not much is bottom pair. You've got top pair. Play it accordingly.

[thesharpie]

You've got top freaking pair!! Be aggressive!1

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Reads really help in these sorts of situations. I don't expect a raise from villain 75% of the time, assuming he's loose passive, he'll call with AK-AJ and KQ, and maybe raise with QJs. A villain at this level who will raise with overcards usually stands out, so I'd expect the OP to note it. Players are just too honest at this level, so I like a nice simple line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering that it was a BB raise, if he's a loose passive, he's probably got a monster preflop hand (AA-QQ (24 hands) and AK-AQ (32 hands), but overcards are raised somewhere around half the time by "loose passive" players). If he's a little more aggressive, then he's more likely to raise with his overcards. These are just estimates and I could be over-estimating a little.

When you have no read, you need to allow more flexibility in the range of hands villain has, and flexibility in the range of ways he can play it. By drawing a hard line (ie "Generic villain will not bet overcards"), you tend to get yourself into more trouble. I'm not saying that you can't make assumptions, but you need to start off being flexible and slowly move towards rigidity as you learn more about your opponents.

There was a good article (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue4/schoonmaker0405.html) in the magazine last month about this sort of thing.

[bozlax]

My new, tighter-preflop self says don't play this. That said...

Anybody else C/R'ing the flop? You've got a pretty good chance that somebody will bet for you, you've got top pair and backdoor straight and flush possibilities, and if the PFR bets, you raise, and he 3-bets you can be pretty certain that he's holding a high PP. If he and everyone else just call down I think your TP is good, and you're up against a lot of people playing overcards/draws.

Then the turn and river would be very different.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
My new, tighter-preflop self says don't play this. That said...

Anybody else C/R'ing the flop? You've got a pretty good chance that somebody will bet for you, you've got top pair and backdoor straight and flush possibilities, and if the PFR bets, you raise, and he 3-bets you can be pretty certain that he's holding a high PP. If he and everyone else just call down I think your TP is good, and you're up against a lot of people playing overcards/draws.

Then the turn and river would be very different.

[/ QUOTE ]

A check-raise is bad because the person betting the flop is in the wrong spot. BB's PFR probably means that he'll bet the flop. You're bloating the pot (as opposed to protecting it) and PFR may not give reliable information. You hand is also quite vulnerable and I would rather see a safe turn card before getting myself too involved since it's going to be multi-way (position sucks, and your hand isn't spectacular).

[RockPile]

grunch

I fold this preflop

[Rev. Good Will]

getting 1:9?

[Entity]

Bet the flop.

[Rev. Good Will]

I don't think your draws are strong enough to try to sneak in extra bets.