View Full Version : How do you like this bluff...
KaneKungFu123
05-13-2005, 07:11 PM
against a semi-decent, average, aware-enough opponent.
party 5-10
6 max
stacks $1,000
Open on Button w/7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for $30
BB calls.
Flop 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif
He checks, You bet $45, He calls.
Turn 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Check. Check.
River 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Check. Bet $250
Rococo
05-13-2005, 07:17 PM
Would you normally overbet the river here with a big hand? Has Villain ever seen you do it and then show the goods?
WSOPwinner10
05-13-2005, 07:18 PM
j
KaneKungFu123
05-13-2005, 07:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Would you normally overbet the river here with a big hand? Has Villain ever seen you do it and then show the goods?
[/ QUOTE ]
no. this is just a completely random move. its not a part of a system or done for future image. this is the first session this player has played against you. you appear as a normal player.
Bosox
05-13-2005, 07:41 PM
it'd look like a bluff if the pot wasn't so small, aka not worth stealing anyways. odd.
[ QUOTE ]
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Would you normally overbet the river here with a big hand? Has Villain ever seen you do it and then show the goods?
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no. this is just a completely random move. its not a part of a system or done for future image. this is the first session this player has played against you. you appear as a normal player.
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Well, the great thing about overbetting, in my experience, is that people tend to think you're full of [censored] until they've seen you show down the goods a few times. Thus w/ unknowns, I often get paid off huge on my big hands, and am able to bluff regulars by representing big hands w/ an overbet when I don't have it, b/c they know I often overbet the nuts.
My initial reaction was no, I don't like it. You raised from the button, then made a continuation bet on a jack-high flop, and villain called. Maybe he has a set, maybe he has 57 or 79, but he likely has a jack. Then you check behind a blank turn. At this point, he isn't going to give you credit for a jack. Then another low card falls, and you come out swinging. Seems like a jack will look you up.
On second glance, however, I changed my mind. You continuation bet the flop w/ two big spaids, get called, pick up a strong flush draw on the turn, and check behind, not wanting to get blown off your draw. Then the backdoor flush comes in, and you bet like you have it.
Still, I think it depends on what villain has, to some degree. Given the fact that you're as much an unknown to him as he is to you, I think that AJ or an awfully played set might look you up here.
If this was a strategy you used often (overbetting), and villain knew that, then now we're talking.
Dr. Strangelove
05-13-2005, 07:58 PM
With no knowledge of you I would usually fold a jack here. Did he call you with something like A6?
WSOPwinner10
05-13-2005, 07:59 PM
LOW SPEED IN THE RANGE ROVER SHIMMY SHIMMY .......
Jason Strasser
05-13-2005, 08:23 PM
Kane,
My first reaction is that it seems like something that I might do verses a regular opponent who is used to see my follow certain betting patterns and who I'd like to throw off. That way if he decided to look me up I'd at least have gained something for the future. In this hand I think it's just a lot to risk vs. an unknown on a pretty draw-light board.
Calling your riverbet with a pair is not so hard because bets like these are so often air or a made hand better than one pair... Very rarely is someone going to do this with an overpair or top pair or something equal to one pair.
If this isnt part of some bigger plan I'm not in love with it, but it can't be that -EV because people here wont look you up with one pair enough.
Also, you noted he was aware. Usually when you bluff you rely on someone being aware to be able to fold a hand. But in this case, an aware opponent will be very confused as the only realistic hand you represent here is a flush.... And if you did have a flush this would be a very weird way to play it. I tend to make calls like this with one pair when I am confused, but it could be a flaw. I'd think this big overbet works more against someone not aware.
-Jason
theBruiser500
05-13-2005, 08:50 PM
jason you say this overbet is often made with air, no one makes it with top pair or overpair... which is a fair enough point, but that is not what kanekungfu is representing, he is definitly represnting a flush. maybe his opponet won't believe him if kane just bets pot because flushes are rare, that is where the overbet comes into play. there is really nothing kane's opponent can do here but fold so i like the river play alot.
preflop is bad. even if you think you make money by auto raising preflop and auto betting flop i think it is bad for shania and think waiting for a more decent hand that is at least suited or connected or higher numbers is better
Jason Strasser
05-13-2005, 09:00 PM
Danny,
I dont understand why an opponent can't decide Kane doesnt have a flush and call reasonably with a pair.
You said Kane 'represented' a flush... Well of course that's what he's representing... But that doesn't mean this opponent doesnt have to believe him. If I was the opponent and I thought Kane was full of it I'd call him with any pair.
-Jason
creedofhubris
05-14-2005, 12:08 AM
Some junk isn't even worth stealing with.
I like the postflop play.
diddle
05-14-2005, 12:40 AM
my first reaction was that this post was about your haiku bluff of $200 that would not be paid
KaneKungFu123
05-14-2005, 05:31 AM
This hand never actually occured.
I think that most of the better, tighter players would bet the turn with a Jack. And the more passive players would probally bet it on the river.
Even if he has a Jack, I dont see him looking me up enough here for this play not to be +EV.
And from a pyschological standpoint, I think alot of players like to fold here because they dont feel like I'm taking something from them. They got to see all five cards. Ive been flirting lately with this quasi concept of non-confrontational bluffing, but more on that later.
[ QUOTE ]
Kane,
My first reaction is that it seems like something that I might do verses a regular opponent who is used to see my follow certain betting patterns and who I'd like to throw off. That way if he decided to look me up I'd at least have gained something for the future. In this hand I think it's just a lot to risk vs. an unknown on a pretty draw-light board.
Calling your riverbet with a pair is not so hard because bets like these are so often air or a made hand better than one pair... Very rarely is someone going to do this with an overpair or top pair or something equal to one pair.
If this isnt part of some bigger plan I'm not in love with it, but it can't be that -EV because people here wont look you up with one pair enough.
Also, you noted he was aware. Usually when you bluff you rely on someone being aware to be able to fold a hand. But in this case, an aware opponent will be very confused as the only realistic hand you represent here is a flush.... And if you did have a flush this would be a very weird way to play it. I tend to make calls like this with one pair when I am confused, but it could be a flaw. I'd think this big overbet works more against someone not aware.
-Jason
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll toss in a bet here with air a fair amount of the time. Most players would lead the river here if they had anything, though a few have got tricky lately and would chk-instacall me here with something like 99.
I'm also betting 175 a good amount of the time here with a jack, an overpair, etc.
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