JJ Early

[11t]

This is the 2nd hand of a 20+2 on Pokerstars. Am I dumb and lucky?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1500)
Button (t1520)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t100</font>, CO calls t100, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls t80.

Flop: (t330) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t180</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t400</font>, Hero calls t220.

Turn: (t1130) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t240</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1000</font>, UTG calls t760 (All-In).

River: (t3130) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3130

[durron597]

You're getting just over 4:1 to call the checkraise on the flop, and you have 4 outs to the nuts and 4 more to the second nuts. Turn is obviously correct, he's shown massive strength and you have the 2nd nuts, and also the fact that you have two J's means him having KJ is unlikely. Since this is not a huge buyin tourney you can't give him credit for KJ here, the stacks aren't deep enough.

Well played.

[nightlyraver]

I don't really like your preflop play. IMO, JJ is simply not a raising hand early in the tourney unless the situation is just right. For example, you have JJ in the cutoff and an early and middle player have just limped, both of them being somewhat predictable players. JJ is just about even money for overcards flopping and if you get played with you really don't know where you are in the hand. Here, you raised and got called by two players you being caught in the middle. Unless you get a great flop, you're through with the hand and waisted a raise. Unless I know the players, the situation is just right, I can get it heads up or I'm desperate, I'm playing JJ for set value most of the time this early in the tourny.

[DireWolf]

I disagree with your post. JJ is too strong a hand to be limping from in mid position. I raise most everytime here, Unless im 100% sure UTG is only limping AA or KK.

[nightlyraver]

First, JJ really isn't that strong of a hand. True, it's the 4th highest pocket pair, but what do you accomplish by raising with it out of position? If you get played with you are almost always beat. For example, UTG limps and you raise in MP w/ JJ - if a player to your left comes over the top you are almost always beat and must fold losing your raise. Same as above, but you get called by a player to the left as well as UTG. Where are you in the hand? What happens when the flop comes A74 - you're done with it. What about when the flop comes T62? If UTG bets you are almost always beat. If UTG checks and you bet, you are almost always beat if you get called (unless you have some real loose or weak competition) and your surely beat if you get raised. IMO, the only time you'll be comfortable with JJ on the flop is when you get a great flop like a set or a huge draw to go along with your pair.

That said, the value of JJ greatly deminishes after the flop and even pre-flop if you get played with. That's why I play JJ more for set value, only getting aggressive with it if I have position, in the early stages. Of course, everything changes later on in the tourney when blinds and antes are worth snatching and hands easily get HU.

[DireWolf]

[ QUOTE ]
First, JJ really isn't that strong of a hand. True, it's the 4th highest pocket pair, but what do you accomplish by raising with it out of position?

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ is the fourth best hand. You just said that, but you also say it isn't that strong of a hand? That doesn't make sense? Also, what do you mean out of position? Your MP3. Thats decent position to start with, but by raising you increase the chance that you get to act last.

[ QUOTE ]

If you get played with you are almost always beat. For example, UTG limps and you raise in MP w/ JJ - if a player to your left comes over the top you are almost always beat and must fold losing your raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. But how often are you going to get reraised here? I don't think you can count on getting reraised. What do you do with AQ here? What hands are you raising here? Also i am not laying down JJ everytime i get reraised, but we will save that for another time.

[ QUOTE ]
Same as above, but you get called by a player to the left as well as UTG. Where are you in the hand? What happens when the flop comes A74 - you're done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No im not. Im betting the flop, and seeing what happens. You are way to weak tight.

[ QUOTE ]
What about when the flop comes T62? If UTG bets you are almost always beat. If UTG checks and you bet, you are almost always beat if you get called (unless you have some real loose or weak competition) and your surely beat if you get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you say i am always beat? Obviously stack sizes matter a lot, but give me some hand ranges for these

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, the only time you'll be comfortable with JJ on the flop is when you get a great flop like a set or a huge draw to go along with your pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about the times you flop an overpair? Why does your arguement change if you have QQ-AA?

[ QUOTE ]

That said, the value of JJ greatly deminishes after the flop and even pre-flop if you get played with. That's why I play JJ more for set value, only getting aggressive with it if I have position, in the early stages. Of course, everything changes later on in the tourney when blinds and antes are worth snatching and hands easily get HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably will have a much bigger stack later on if you start playing JJ more aggressively.

[marrek]

[ QUOTE ]
First, JJ really isn't that strong of a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ is a strong hand, but is vulnerable to bad flops. YOu need to raise it preflop to help your chances of winning the pot by narrowing the field. Also, raising takes the initive it the hand which is always good.

Becasue the hand is vulnerable, there are times you have to fold it on the flop, but there are more times when you can steal the pot on the lfop becasue you raised preflop.

Its definately a raising hand IMO, but i'm not going to have to fold on bad flops.

Marrek