What do you think?

[Mike Cuneo]

Recently playing in my regular NL game, $5-5 blinds buy in 1-300. I am sitting on about 500 and in the SB and look down at KQ. A friend sitting at the other end of the table makes it $30 to go and i fling in a call. I check dark and we see a flop of Q Q 2. My friend moves in for about 250 and I beat him into the pot. He shows KK and I take it down. This sparked a debate about how "lucky" I was (on that hand no denying it) and it made my friend upset because of how I played it (checking dark.) Everyone at the table, me included, told him that moving in there would only get him called down by hands that beat him. Sure KK losing to KQ is a rotten beat but why overbet the $65 pot with 250 when you'll only get called by trips or a full house? Am I right here?

[xorbie]

You're preflop call is pretty awful, but his play is just as bad.

[Rotating Rabbit]

Yes

[TheGame1020]

Hi, I am the so called "villain" in this hand. I actually normally post at another forum but frequent 2+2 often so why not join!? I came home after our night of poker to see this post and I feel like I should give my side of the story on this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Recently playing in my regular NL game, $5-5 blinds buy in 1-300. I am sitting on about 500 and in the SB and look down at KQ. A friend sitting at the other end of the table makes it $30 to go and i fling in a call. I check dark and we see a flop of Q Q 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember the flop was actually QQ4 not QQ2. Thats not really the point though, the point is the preflop raise is a horrible call. Not that I didn't want action on KK, but calling a raise with KQ off out of position on the big blind is absurd. Also, the poster of this hand knows I am a very tight player AK, AQ, QQ, KK, AA all have him crushed. Of course, calling a raise 6x the big blind with KQo is a -EV play! The dark check is wrong as well. Also, this would not be the hand to do it with. Dark checking with obviously dominated cards??? I don't see what this accomplishes. (never was a fan of the D check anyways) Maybe dark check your middle pocket pair if you put me on AK (or other highcards) to see if you hit your set and the A or K flops and trap me. This is just absurd.

[ QUOTE ]
My friend moves in for about 250 and I beat him into the pot. He shows KK and I take it down. This sparked a debate about how "lucky" I was (on that hand no denying it) and it made my friend upset because of how I played it (checking dark.) Everyone at the table, me included, told him that moving in there would only get him called down by hands that beat him. Sure KK losing to KQ is a rotten beat but why overbet the $65 pot with 250 when you'll only get called by trips or a full house? Am I right here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted I did overbet the pot I won't deny that. But I had my reasons. I feared an ace on the turn and river, I also don't have a problem winning this pot now. Thats just the way I am, I was already up 100 dollars on the night and didn't mind taking it down, even for 25 bucks. I can't put him on KQ and he is a reckless player (not bad) but reckless likes to see alot of flops. A few hands before this he called 60 dollars preflop with 68 suited. Which is obviously incorrect! Sure I overbet it, but thats just how i play in this game. Everyone is in the pot drawing calling 20 dollar bets or 30 dollar bets on all kinds of draws. I don't want to get beat by a draw, so thats how I play there, not all in every flop but when I feel I need to. If someone wants to call go ahead cause I will usually have a strong hand. Of course there was no draw on this flop but I just don't like giving a free card ever, (unless i flop the nuts)and in my mind i would be giving him a free card. This time it was not correct but it most certainly does not justify an absurd call preflop. KQ and AJ unsuited in a raise pot are usually worthless.

Poker talk aside, I am good friends with this poster and we will still be friends after this post LOL. Just some lively discussion!

[LuvDemNutz]

I'm sorry but betting $250 into a $65 pot because you fear 3 outs, when you know you will only get called by a hand that is crushing you, doesn't sound "correct" to me.

Betting $40-$65 accomplishes the same thing if you want to adequately "charge" someone to draw to an Ace.

[iceman5]

So basically, your reason for pushing all in with a huge overbet is that "thats how I play in this game"?

Bad Bad Bad.

His preflop call is horrible, but there is no need to push all in there. You win $65 alot of the time, but you lose the $250 EVERY time you get called.

[LetYouDown]

I love the push. Even if you get called and he has K-Q, you still have 1 out.

[TheGame1020]

I wouldn't have folded KK against this player. I just can't possibly put him on QK as well. Overbetting the pot was dumb yeah, but that usually works there since no one ever folds their draws. This wasn't the correct hand to do it on. I agree with that. I just can't see myself folding KK here period reguardless against this player. I felt like I had the best hand and overbet it but I probably wouldn't have folded it.

Also, I don't lose 250 every time. Say I have AQ, there is a time I get paid. I just wanted to get all my money with the best hand... atleast preflop it was the best. To get a board like that with QK sucks for me, but I guess I made it worse with a horrible bet. Though the preflop call still is BS. The hands this person was hitting tonight made me think "he could never have it" and I overbet and paid for it. Hey, thats poker! BUT THE DARK CHECK STILL IS INCORRECT!

[LetYouDown]

What draw do you have on a board of Q-Q-4? I didn't see any mention of suits.

[TheGame1020]

No draws. I've just seen too many suckouts in this game. I'm just so used to betting big in this game to get drawing hands out. This game is a bit absurd, I don't think anyone ever folds a flush draw even to an all in for all their chips. I won't argue I made a mistake here! I'm just saying calling a 6x BB raise out of position is simply horrible. I overbet it, I understand but that call preflop to me is just insane /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[SmileyEH]

You guys both suck.

-SmileyEH

[TheGame1020]

Look at that my first few posts and someone is already telling me I suck! YAY 2+2!

[imported_bingobazza]

you both suck

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys both suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

The preflop call w/ KQo oop isn't *quite* as bad as betting 5X the pot on that flop w/ KK.

But it's close.

[TheGame1020]

LOL. Well thanks for the bashing. I should really stick to limit, new to NL as you can tell. I'm flattered by the helpful "you suck" etc. I thought this forum was a little above that but I guess not.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys both suck.



[/ QUOTE ]

[TheGame1020]

Your mom sucks. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[TrailofTears]

PF call with KQo is not good OOP. Flop push is terrible, as is your reasoning for making it.

Welcome to the forums.

-T

[TheGame1020]

Word.

[Mike Cuneo]

How is a preflop call of a normal sized raise in the blind "horrible"? I have 2 face cards and I feel if I hit the right kind of flop I can break him. Now, the problem is that if the flop comes down Q 7 2 and he bets I may call also and get broke myself. But, if I put him on 99 TT JJ then I am not that far behind and with the right flop I can win.

[bobneptune]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at that my first few posts and someone is already telling me I suck! YAY 2+2!

[/ QUOTE ]


c'mon game,

they were just tweaking ya a little.... don't take it so seriously.

you did get a fair analysis of the hand my multiple listers and if they want to have a little fun with it at your expense.. what's the big deal. this is supposed to be somewhat recreational as well as a fountain of good information and discussion.

i actually thought the "you both suck" was quite funny and meant to be lighthearted, not vicious.

its good for the soul to have a little laugh at yourself sometimes.

[NickPoker]

So you rule out KQ, can you rule out AQ, 44(or 22 whatever the other card was)? As the other posters, state the overbet accomplishes no more than a pot size bet. The end result may have been the same, but at least you have a chance to evaluate.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
How is a preflop call of a normal sized raise in the blind "horrible"? I have 2 face cards and I feel if I hit the right kind of flop I can break him. Now, the problem is that if the flop comes down Q 7 2 and he bets I may call also and get broke myself. But, if I put him on 99 TT JJ then I am not that far behind and with the right flop I can win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey bro, it's fine. If I gave you a $1200 stack, and said do you want to ante a $30 bet for $1200, as a 3:1 dog, would you take it? Of course you would.

[Mike Cuneo]

And if i "suck" so bad come play me head up on poker room. Screen name cuneo187.

[NickDollar]

You did get very lucky (which you know) and it seems like both of you overvalue hands. I would say the flop allin with KK is abominable as well, but probably still is better than the call of KQo out of position vs a "very tight" player. The only good flops for you are KKx or QQx, maybe KQx but I'd still be worried vs a very tight player there.

I understand the type of game you guys play in and with everyone consistently making even worse fundamental mistakes your plays probably don't seem bad in comparison, but they need to be fixed too.

[TheGame1020]

Thanks Nick. Yeah, I agree. I'm pretty much a limit player. I guess a over reacted a bit above. Its all good.

[NickDollar]

No problem sir, I'm sure the few times I dabble in limit play I make far far worse mistakes.

"Hmmm, I know he has an overpair but if I bet every street I'll blow him off it!" type thinking doesn't work so hot in limit. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[creedofhubris]

Friends don't play KQo against their friends' preflop raises.

[MTBlue]

You're just being dumb. I want the guy to call me with three-outer for 60 bucks on the turn. Its basically 14:1 against him making it. He needs to make 840 dollars to make the call correct. As for getting sucked out on, if you bet the pot on the turn and don't pay off on the river, they will never have correct odds with anything less than 14 outs. Yes I agree that calling big raises out of blinds with kq is not smart, but the real money is won or lost on the turn or the river. Variance isn't that important if you're not properly bankrolled move down. Quit being a whiny bitch and try to learn something. The argument that this is how I've always done it so this is how it's done is completely fatuous. Take a step back and learn from your mistakes. Your overbet is only profitable is your friend is willing to call with jj-22, but most players will only call with a q or a full house, maybe AA.

[greywolf]

preflop call with KQo ,while bad isnt a HUGE mistake. the flop push on the other hand is terrible. You can't play poker well at all so you just push your chips so you dont have to be faced with any more decisions. You should focus on learning poker rather then getting angry at two plus two forum for telling you that you suck, its not like people randomly choose to berate good players and tell them how much they suck.