Best Baseball Player Not in the Hall

[Jack of Arcades]

The following people are ineligible for this question:

Active alayers
Retired players awaiting eligibility
Pete Rose, Sholess Joe, etc.

I'll go with Dick Allen.

[tbach24]

I'll go with Shoeless Joe. Career OPS of .940, OPS+ of 170, didn't K much, and has a legit name.

[Soul Daddy]

Ron Santo

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
The following people are ineligible for this question:

Active alayers
Retired players awaiting eligibility
Pete Rose, Sholess Joe, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[OldYoda]

Shoeless Joe Jackson, not even close.

"..where triples go to die."

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Ron Santo

[/ QUOTE ]

Ron should definitely be in the Hall, but I don't think he's better than Richie Allen.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Shoeless Joe Jackson, not even close.

"..where triples go to die."

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The following people are ineligible for this question:

Active alayers
Retired players awaiting eligibility
Pete Rose, Sholess Joe, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I did so good on my English SAT's, I wonder how I missed that.

[kerssens]

can you list some of the notables not in the hall?

[kerssens]

Is Gil Hodges in the hall?

[KDawgCometh]

okay pete rose and Joe Jackson are givens, but I don't think they should e up for consideration in this discussion considering their bans. So I go for Jim Rice

[Catch of the Day]

I would have to probably say "Shoeless Joe", although I think that Pete Rose is worth mentioning as well. Hope this helps

Catch- /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Vince Young]

Dale Murphy
Ron Santo

[tbach24]

Lefty O' Doule. Know nothing about him but looked at the leaders in OPS and he looked good. lol

[Jack of Arcades]

Dick Allen, Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Kent Tekulve, Bret Saberhagen, Goose Gossage, Ryne Sandberg, Andre Dawson, Steve Garvey, Don Mattingly, Jim Rice, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Roger Maris, Ted Simmons.

[kerssens]

Wasn't there a baseball trivia thread where Tony Oliva was the answer? Probably not the best but I'm trying to throw out some names.

[Soul Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ron Santo

[/ QUOTE ]

Ron should definitely be in the Hall, but I don't think he's better than Richie Allen.

[/ QUOTE ]
Looking closely at the stats, I have to conclude that you are correct. SLG is a big advantage for Allen. How do they compare defensively? I suck at reading defensive metrics.

[Soul Daddy]

Sandberg is in.

[JoeU]

Donald Arthur Mattingly

I'm a little biased, he's my favorite Yankee of all time.


Joe

[bort411]

Rickey Henderson.

[tbach24]

Pete Browning (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brownpe01.shtml)

[kerssens]

[ QUOTE ]
Rickey Henderson.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not eligible yet. Will be a first ballot HOFer.

[Vince Young]

[ QUOTE ]
Sandberg is in.

[/ QUOTE ]
nope

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Is Gil Hodges in the hall?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Others not in: Tony Oliva, Joe Torre, Maury Wills, Vada Pinson, Luis Tiant, Minnie Minoso, Curt Flood, Wes Ferrell.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ron Santo

[/ QUOTE ]

Ron should definitely be in the Hall, but I don't think he's better than Richie Allen.

[/ QUOTE ]
Looking closely at the stats, I have to conclude that you are correct. SLG is a big advantage for Allen. How do they compare defensively? I suck at reading defensive metrics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Santo was undoubtedly better than Richie... Allen just didn't care enough. He was servicable and had mounds of talent, but preferred to just hit the crap out of the ball.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Dick Allen, Ron Santo, Tommy John, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Goose Gossage, Ryne Sandberg, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter.

[/ QUOTE ]


edited to look more realistic

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Sandberg is in.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. he should be in sometime soon, but he is not in yet.

[bort411]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rickey Henderson.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not eligible yet. Will be a first ballot HOFer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP said active players count. Aside from Joe Jackson (who's already been mentioned), there's really not anyone else as qualified who's not in.

[Soul Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sandberg is in.

[/ QUOTE ]
nope

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a 2005 inductee. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/hof/y2005/index.jsp) That doesn't count?

[kerssens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rickey Henderson.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not eligible yet. Will be a first ballot HOFer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP said active players count. Aside from Joe Jackson (who's already been mentioned), there's really not anyone else as qualified who's not in.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP said active players, players awaiting eligility, Pete Rose and Joe Jackson are ineligible for consideration.

[Jack of Arcades]

Bert Blyleven is certainly better than Tommy John. Ted Simmons was just as good as either Bench of Berra. Kent Tekulve has a better case than Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
The following people are ineligible for this question:

Active alayers
Retired players awaiting eligibility
Pete Rose, Sholess Joe, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Bert Blyleven is certainly better than Tommy John. Ted Simmons was just as good as either Bench of Berra. Kent Tekulve has a better case than Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blyleven also lost well over 200 games to go with his 287 wins. Sutter invented the split fingered fastball, which is now a major weapon, he was also one of the first to really make the Closer position important. Lee Smith just purely on stats. Tekulve has a lot of games under his belt, but he wasn't impressive enough. I'm about making the Hall very hard to get into and feel that Orlando Cepeda and Tony Perez aren't really worthy of the Hall. I will actually make an argument for Albert Belle. If it weren't for his hip problems that ended his career prematurely he would certaily be up for consideration. When you look at an eight year sample of his best years, they rank up there with anyone's

[battschr]

Ron Santo

[Popinjay]

I-CHI-RO

or Kazuhiro Sasaki

[Jack of Arcades]

Bert Blyleven also played on bad teams and had some of the worst run support for any pitcher ever.

Rich Lederer brings the evidence (http://www.all-baseball.com/richbeat/archives/011878.html).

EDIT: For Tekulve, Lee Smith only has one thing on him.... Saves.

[OldYoda]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shoeless Joe Jackson, not even close.

"..where triples go to die."

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[Pocket Trips]

[ QUOTE ]
Shoeless Joe Jackson, not even close.

"..where triples go to die."

[/ QUOTE ]

wow u can quote a movie u saw and u know just how great shoeless Joe was....

Yes his #'s are undeniable and his story is a great one, but it always cracks me up how many people romanticize Feild of Dreams and think Joe Jackson was the greatest player not in the HOF b/c of it. He very may well be but its not b/c of some movie.

I love Field of Dreams too. It is one of my favorite films. its one of only 2 movies that i cry every time i see it still to this day (yes I am a pussy),but just because there are some good quotes from the movie dosn't mean you can use them as an argument in a discussion about real baseball.

[Dead]

Don Mattingly

[Jack of Arcades]

Because you can't read.

[ QUOTE ]
The following people are ineligible for this question:

Active alayers
Retired players awaiting eligibility
Pete Rose, Sholess Joe, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Pocket Trips]

[ QUOTE ]
Don Mattingly

[/ QUOTE ]

wow i was just about to post saying baseball threads are no fun w/o Dead to make fun of.

Welcome back dead

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sandberg is in.

[/ QUOTE ]
nope

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a 2005 inductee. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/events/hof/y2005/index.jsp) That doesn't count?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh Hell, I forgot about it. You're right.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Bert Blyleven also played on bad teams and had some of the worst run support for any pitcher ever.

Rich Lederer brings the evidence (http://www.all-baseball.com/richbeat/archives/011878.html).

EDIT: For Tekulve, Lee Smith only has one thing on him.... Saves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a very good argument for Blyleven, and I haven't looked at it that way. Some of the pitchers that have less wins then Blyleven are a bit unfair. When I look at a player for the Hall, I look morew at did he dominate his time, since certain numbers are gonna have to be changed for today's players. 500 homers might not get a guy like McGriff in the Hall and massive RBI totals nowadays might not get them in the hall either. Likewise numbers for todays pitchers numbers of wins will be considered with less. Okay now to what I'm really saying about the domination of an era. Blyleven didn't do that. We are given Drysdale, Feller, Koufax(totally unfair considering that his career ended at the age of 30),and his peers like Palmer, and Jenkins. Jenkins won 20 games for six years styraight. Palmer won titles and Cy Young awards. Nolan Ryan played for many underachieving teams himself too. Feller was an utter terror as was Gibson and Drysdale. I really hope you aren't trying to rate Blyleven as being better then them. Blyleven is helped by a very long career. He only won 20 games once I think, in his long career that is kinda weak. I know that Nolan won 20 games like twice, but his strikeout total and Cy young awards make up for his low 20 win total

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Don Mattingly

[/ QUOTE ]

only Yanks fans argue for his HOF induction

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Don Mattingly

[/ QUOTE ]

Don Mattingly goes in when John Olerud goes in.

[Jack of Arcades]

Nolan Ryan won no Cy Young Awards.

[Jack of Arcades]

There are many problems with you argument, the biggest being that you use wins and championships to equate with dominance. Neither Feller (no Cy Youngs), Jenkins (1 Cy Young), Ryan (no Cy Youngs), Drsydale (1 Cy Young), nor Palmer (3 Cy Youngs) were more dominant than Blyleven (going by ERA Titles here). Aside from Ryan, Blyleven outlasted them all and performed at a hgiher rate than they did.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don Mattingly

[/ QUOTE ]

Don Mattingly goes in when John Olerud goes in.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is such a stupid argument.

I'm not saying he will get in, I'm saying that he should have been strongly considered.

Don Mattingly > John Olerud, and it is not close.

[Soul Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Don Mattingly > John Olerud, and it is not close.

[/ QUOTE ]
Look at the numbers. It's surprisingly close.

[Dead]

No it's not. Look at Baseball-reference.

[youtalkfunny]

The only thing keeping Rice out is off-field BS (the writers don't like him, and the writers vote).

[blindu]

maris anyone?

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
maris anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that .260 BA is very appealing.

Maris definitely does not deserve to get in.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing keeping Rice out is off-field BS (the writers don't like him, and the writers vote).

[/ QUOTE ]

he'll probably end up being a vets comitte votee, like santo will

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
maris anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

you're joking right?

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
No it's not. Look at Baseball-reference.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK.

John Olerud: 8871 PA, 130 OPS+
Don Mattingly: 7721 PA, 127 OPS+

Also, since you're a Yankee fan, you'll appreciate this. Count da ringgzzzzzz.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Maris definitely does not deserve to get in.

[/ QUOTE ]

We agree on something!

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
maris anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

only if brady anderson gets in

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maris anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

only if brady anderson gets in

[/ QUOTE ]

Or Jay Buhner.

[Bulldog]

Before I read the thread:

Bert Blyleven

[Bulldog]

And now that I've read it:

1) Bert Blyleven
2) Jim Rice

[mostsmooth]

shoeless joe and pete rose

[Paluka]

If I could vote for one guy who isn't in it would be Jim Rice. His peak value was just soooooooo high. Bert Blyleven, Ron Santo, Ted Simmons should be in. Dick Allen and Dale Murphy have arguments.

[Voltron87]

I haven't read this thread, and I'm sure Dead and someone have argued about it, but it's Mattingly.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Neither ....Palmer (3 Cy Youngs) were more dominant than Blyleven (going by ERA Titles here).

[/ QUOTE ]


why are u making stuff up?

Hopw many ERA title do you think Blyleven won. Hint- its two less than Palmer.


Career era, cy youngs, gold gloves, allstar appearances, winning perentage, era v. league era...oh, you must have meant Byleven leading the league in home runs allowed more often than Palmer. get outta here clown and stop messing with 'cakes.

[M2d]

Rollie Fingers

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Don Mattingly

[/ QUOTE ]

Most overated player by Yankee fans ever

[BreakfastBurrito]

The answer is clearly Zane Smith.

[texaspimp]

The top stats are for a Hall of Famer. The bottom stats are for someone who is not in. Reasons???

G
1783
1785
AB
7244
7003
R
1071
1007
H
2304
2153
2B
414
442
3B
57
20
HR
207
222
RBI
1085
1099
TB
3453
3301
BB
450
588
SO
965
444
SB
134
14
OBP SLG AVG
.360 .477 .318
.358 .471 .307

Answers in white: <font color="white">Kirby Puckett and Don Mattingly </font>




Also, FWIW, look at Bill Buckner's stats sometime. He should merit some consideration.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neither ....Palmer (3 Cy Youngs) were more dominant than Blyleven (going by ERA Titles here).

[/ QUOTE ]


why are u making stuff up?

Hopw many ERA title do you think Blyleven won. Hint- its two less than Palmer.


Career era, cy youngs, gold gloves, allstar appearances, winning perentage, era v. league era...oh, you must have meant Byleven leading the league in home runs allowed more often than Palmer. get outta here clown and stop messing with 'cakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you adjust for ballpark, Bert Blyleven beats Jim Palmer in 1973. Fitting, no?

Here's a pretty important stats you're leaving out, and get this, it's much more important than "winning percentage": innings pitched, which Bert 1000 more innings than Jim.

For his career, Jim Palmer was fortunate enough to play on a team with amazing offense. He got 7% more run support than the league average and over 10% more than guys like Blyleven and Ryan. Maybe that has something to do with his great winning percentage, cy youngs, and all star appearances? Hmmm? How many wins do you think he'd have if he played for Baltimore? More than Jim Palmer, that's for sure.

Bert Blyleven rarely lead his league in anything, but he was consistently one of the best pitchers in baseball for almost twenty years.

[Jack of Arcades]

CF
1B

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
CF
1B

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, it doesn't matter how many gold gloves Mattingly won, a CF who can field and hit is a lot more impressive.

[texaspimp]

Admittedly, I am a Mattingly fan. And while I certainly see defensive value up the middle, I don't think Kirby excelled enough in either category (off/def) to make it in the HOF while Donnie is out.

TC
Puckett 4586
Mattingly 15459

E
Puck 51
Matt 68

Fielding %
Puck .989
Matt .996

For the record, I have not compared their %'s to their peers in or out of their era.

[IndieMatty]

I love Don Mattingly more then any heterosexual man should.

He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. BUT! Is career is more significant than Oleruds. I know you stat guys are shoving OPS out there, but Donnie was probably considered the best player in baseball for three or four years. Olerud was a good hitter.

Anyhoo the correct answer is Tony Olivia or Jim Rice.

[texaspimp]

Ahhh haaaaaaa!!

Indie, I agree.

I am a huge Mattingly fan, but I don't necessarily think he belongs in (I do think it is closer than most people think, but maybe that is bias!!)

My point is that Puckett, and others, don't belong either. That goes for many of today's "great players" as well. The HOF should be for GREAT players, not really good or great for a couple of years players, IMHO.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
I love Don Mattingly more then any heterosexual man should.

He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. BUT! Is career is more significant than Oleruds. I know you stat guys are shoving OPS out there, but Donnie was probably considered the best player in baseball for three or four years. Olerud was a good hitter.

Anyhoo the correct answer is Tony Olivia or Jim Rice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mattingly had 4 good seasons (84-87) and plenty of average seasons. John Olerud had 3 good seasons (1993, 1998, 2002) and more average seasons than Mattingly.

His career is only more "significant" because everyone gives him a blowjob at every opportunity.

I'm on the fence about Jim Rice's HOF credentials, but I think it's clear that neither he nor Tony Oliva are the best players not in the Hall.

[Jack of Arcades]

1) Kirby Puckett has an infinitely stronger case than Mattingly for the Hall
2) Kirby Puckett does not belong in the Hall.

[Jack of Arcades]

Texas, just letting you know... these numbers have no value whatsoever. FWIW.

[texaspimp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love Don Mattingly more then any heterosexual man should.

He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. BUT! Is career is more significant than Oleruds. I know you stat guys are shoving OPS out there, but Donnie was probably considered the best player in baseball for three or four years. Olerud was a good hitter.

Anyhoo the correct answer is Tony Olivia or Jim Rice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mattingly had 4 good seasons (84-87) and plenty of average seasons. John Olerud had 3 good seasons (1993, 1998, 2002) and more average seasons than Mattingly.

His career is only more "significant" because everyone gives him a blowjob at every opportunity.

I'm on the fence about Jim Rice's HOF credentials, but I think it's clear that neither he nor Tony Oliva are the best players not in the Hall.

[/ QUOTE ]

His career is more significant because he was widely regarding as one of if not the best player(s) in the game for that "good" season stretch of 84-87.

[texaspimp]

What numbers do? How is his case infinitely stronger. The rings. Does that mean that all players who have average or above average careers get in as long as they have rings?

Just curious.

[Jack of Arcades]

I don't give one damn about public perception. Mattingly had a better peak, but Olerud kills him in career value.

[texaspimp]

Nice to see the anger and vitriol coming out. Why????

And apparently you do care about public perception:

[ QUOTE ]
Hee Seop Choi is actually one of the better fielders at 1B in the league. Per ESPN:

[ QUOTE ]
On defense, he has all the tools to be a Gold Glove winner some day. His hands are soft and his footwork around the firstbase bag is excellent. The lefthander makes the lead throw on the double play with strength and accuracy, and he looks like he has been playing first base at the major league level for years.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not as good as, say, Todd Helton, but he's pretty good (as good as, say, Derrek Lee).

[/ QUOTE ]

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
What numbers do? How is his case infinitely stronger. The rings. Does that mean that all players who have average or above average careers get in as long as they have rings?

Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll put it this way. If Mattingly gets in as a light hitting 1B, most of the other comaparables will get support for the hall, all 150 of them or so with comparable numbers relative to their era. I'm sorry, but if you can point out to me when Mattingly was an elite first baseman...because I don't see it.

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love Don Mattingly more then any heterosexual man should.

He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. BUT! Is career is more significant than Oleruds. I know you stat guys are shoving OPS out there, but Donnie was probably considered the best player in baseball for three or four years. Olerud was a good hitter.

Anyhoo the correct answer is Tony Olivia or Jim Rice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mattingly had 4 good seasons (84-87) and plenty of average seasons. John Olerud had 3 good seasons (1993, 1998, 2002) and more average seasons than Mattingly.

His career is only more "significant" because everyone gives him a blowjob at every opportunity.

I'm on the fence about Jim Rice's HOF credentials, but I think it's clear that neither he nor Tony Oliva are the best players not in the Hall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack,

Your much more knowledgeable about baseball, but your anti-yankee bias is sorta shitty.

Olerud did not win an MVP, Olerud was never considered the best player in baseball. Olerud's career was not shortened by and [censored] up in the last 6 years by a debilitating back injury.

Yes, Yankee fans continually want to perform analingus on him, but I know plenty of Yankee haters who agree that before his injury he was a hell of a ball player on the way to a HOF career.

[texaspimp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What numbers do? How is his case infinitely stronger. The rings. Does that mean that all players who have average or above average careers get in as long as they have rings?

Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll put it this way. If Mattingly gets in as a light hitting 1B, most of the other comaparables will get support for the hall, all 150 of them or so with comparable numbers relative to their era. I'm sorry, but if you can point out to me when Mattingly was an elite first baseman...because I don't see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to admit I have nothing to say. Light hitting first baseman. You got me there.

"More 'roids Mr. Mattingly?"

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What numbers do? How is his case infinitely stronger. The rings. Does that mean that all players who have average or above average careers get in as long as they have rings?

Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll put it this way. If Mattingly gets in as a light hitting 1B, most of the other comaparables will get support for the hall, all 150 of them or so with comparable numbers relative to their era. I'm sorry, but if you can point out to me when Mattingly was an elite first baseman...because I don't see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we are just argueing Olerud Vs Donnie now. I can't see any rational OOTer thinking he belongs.

Just a question, where do we lump Gil Hodges? I guess he is in the Mattingly category?

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is clearly Zane Smith.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're setting up a spot for him in the chinless wing as we speak.

As to the original post, I disagree on Dick Allen, but I think Jim Rice should be in, despite the move towards "more meaningful" stats...and no, I'm not a Sox fan.

[Jack of Arcades]

No, not the rings.

His case is infinitely stronger because what Paluka said: a good hitting CF is more impressive (and valuable) than a good hitting 1B, because he provides so much more defensive value.

Kirby is a top 15 CF, maybe top 10.. I haven't really looked at it too much, but off the top of my head the CFs that are better: Mantle, Mays, Dimaggio, Speaker, Snider, Griffey, Averill, Jimmy Wynn, Larry Doby... about now it gets tough and I'm not quite sure if there's anyone else... Vada Pinson? Edd Roush? I'm not even too sure that Averill's significantly better than Puckett, actually, and thinking about it, I'm not so sure Puckett isn't qualified for the Hall.

Mattingly? I can namre 8 first basmen that played in the past 5 years I'd rather put in the Hall than Don:

McGwire
Bagwell
Thomas
Clark
McGriff
Palmeiro
Thome
Olerud

Then let's go historically... Gehrig. Foxx. Anson. Mize. Killebrew. Murray. Greenberg. McCovey. Hernandez. Cepeda. Perez. Norm Cash. There's 20. Dan Brouthers. George Sisler. Mickey Vernon. Boog Powell.

Puckett was one of the better CF of all time, and Mattingly... wasn't one of the best 1B. It's that simple.

[J.R.]

you said era titles, now you want to change the story talk about ERA+...who had a better era+, lifetime? Is blyleven in the top 100?

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a pretty important stats you're leaving out, and get this, it's much more important than "winning percentage": innings pitched, which Bert 1000 more innings than Jim.

[/ QUOTE ]

he also played longer and pitched those innings with a higher era and ERA+. when palmer was healthy he consistently threw more innigns with a better era.

in 1967-1968 plamer barely played (after becoming the youngest pitcher to throw a complete game shutout in the WS aginst Koufax in game two of the 66 series), was injured for much of 1974 and he was plagued by injuires from 1980-1984.

[ QUOTE ]

For his career, Jim Palmer was fortunate enough to play on a team with amazing offense. He got 7% more run support than the league average and over 10% more than guys like Blyleven and Ryan. Maybe that has something to do with his great winning percentage, cy youngs, and all star appearances? Hmmm? How many wins do you think he'd have if he played for Baltimore? More than Jim Palmer, that's for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder what the percentage difference in their era's was... Palmer was a gold glover and a competitor absolute (I know baseball sta freaks don't like things phrases like "clutch" or "big-game pitcher" and scoff at stats like the facts Palmer never gave up a grand slam or his 2.61 postseason era or the fact that unlike Blyleven, Palmer played many meaningful and significant games, leading staffs on a team consistently in contention over palmer's career, but...).


[ QUOTE ]
Bert Blyleven rarely lead his league in anything, but he was consistently one of the best pitchers in baseball for almost twenty years.


[/ QUOTE ]

Jim Palmer dominated when healthy over his career and was one of the best pitcher of his era. I am not attacking bret blyleven, this approach to hall of fame arguments is silly. tell me why blyleven deserves to be in the hall, don't make unfounded and inaccurate claims disparaging the careers of others.

[Jack of Arcades]

Don't you think there's a diffence between what the media thinks and what a trained scouting report says?

[bort411]

Kirby was absolutely huge in both the 1987 and 1991 postseasons. How many great playoff series did Mattingly have? Also, and I may be alone here, but I'd take a 6 time gold glove winning center fielder over a 9 time winning first baseman to play any position...even first base. The best defensive first baseman in a given league is generally the best of those unqualified to play any other position.

[ QUOTE ]
The top stats are for a Hall of Famer. The bottom stats are for someone who is not in. Reasons???

G
1783
1785
AB
7244
7003
R
1071
1007
H
2304
2153
2B
414
442
3B
57
20
HR
207
222
RBI
1085
1099
TB
3453
3301
BB
450
588
SO
965
444
SB
134
14
OBP SLG AVG
.360 .477 .318
.358 .471 .307

Answers in white: <font color="white">Kirby Puckett and Don Mattingly </font>




Also, FWIW, look at Bill Buckner's stats sometime. He should merit some consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jack of Arcades]

Matt,

I have no anti-Yankee bias.I think Bernie might have a case for the Hall. I'd vote for Sheffield. Jeter might get in. A-Rod's already a lock. Mussina has a shot. Mo's a lock. Randy's a lock. Etc.

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
Matt,

I have no anti-Yankee bias.I think Bernie might have a case for the Hall. I'd vote for Sheffield. Jeter might get in. A-Rod's already a lock. Mussina has a shot. Mo's a lock. Randy's a lock. Etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok.

Sheff/Arod/Randy are not yankees!

Hell I'm not sold on this Mussina "kid" either. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

P.S. He has no shot if Bert Byleven doesn't get in.

[Voltron87]

I agree with all those, except

A. Jeter is a lock
B. Mussina is going to have to go nuts on everyone in the next few years to make it. And right now it's hard to see that happening.

[Jack of Arcades]

I'm not disparaging Jim Palmer's career by saying he wasn't better than Blyleven, am I?

[ QUOTE ]
you said era titles, now you want to change the story talk about ERA+...who had a better era+, lifetime? Is blyleven in the top 100?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim Palmer had a better ERA+ lifetime, thanks to the fact that he didn't pitch a significant number of innings past his prime. I'm sure if Palmer goes out there and throws another 1000 innings his ERA+ doesn't look so pretty.

[ QUOTE ]
he also played longer and pitched those innings with a higher era and ERA+. when palmer was healthy he consistently threw more innigns with a better era.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Palmer pitched 19 seasons, Blyleven 22, and Blyleven threw 1000 more innings. "When he was healthy" is a nice caveat, but he wasn't always healthy.

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what the percentage difference in their era's was...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a lot closer than ten, especially if you remove the last 1000 innings from Bert's career.

Jim Palmer played many meaningful games because he was fortunate enough to come up with three other great pitchers on a team with a great offense and defense, all lead by Earl Weaver.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with all those, except

A. Jeter is a lock
B. Mussina is going to have to go nuts on everyone in the next few years to make it. And right now it's hard to see that happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeter SHOULDN'T be a lock.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with all those, except

A. Jeter is a lock
B. Mussina is going to have to go nuts on everyone in the next few years to make it. And right now it's hard to see that happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeter SHOULDN'T be a lock.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think, he should, you proably know that, but no point arguing.

Whether he should or shouldn't he will make it though. Writers heart Jeter.

[bort411]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with all those, except

A. Jeter is a lock
B. Mussina is going to have to go nuts on everyone in the next few years to make it. And right now it's hard to see that happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeter SHOULDN'T be a lock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

1. In the prime of his career, he's not even the best shortstop ON HIS TEAM.
2. He's consistently one of the 5 best shortstops in baseball, but has never been the best.
3. His postseason numbers aren't that great.
4. His All-Star appearances are grossly exaggerated due to the fact that more people in NY vote than any other city, and that Joe Torre usually picks him even when he doesn't get the votes.
5. Weak glove.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
3. His postseason numbers aren't that great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you got this one really wrong, Jeter's post season numbers are pretty damned great.

.306/.380/.456. I'll take that from my shortstop every day of the week.

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]

McGwire
Bagwell
Thomas
Clark
McGriff
Palmeiro
Thome
Olerud



[/ QUOTE ]

It would be nice if there were a formula to adjust for steroids, similar to ballpark-adjusted stats.

[bort411]

I'm surprised they're that high. In my defense, each of those categories is lower than his career regular season averages. I guess the memory of his crappy ALCS last year still lingers in my mind.

Also, since you're big on extenuating factors when it's convient, isn't it worth noting that whomever was hitting behind Jeter was usually an All-Star, a former MVP, and/or a future Hall of Famer? Is there some magical equation that shows me what these numbers would be if Craig Counsell was hitting behind him instead of Alex Rodriguez?

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised they're that high. In my defense, each of those categories is lower than his career regular season averages. I guess the memory of his crappy ALCS last year still lingers in my mind.

Also, since you're big on extenuating factors when it's convient, isn't it worth noting that whomever was hitting behind Jeter was usually an All-Star, a former MVP, and/or a future Hall of Famer? Is there some magical equation that shows me what these numbers would be if Craig Counsell was hitting behind him instead of Alex Rodriguez?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no statistical evidence for the "protection" theory.

[Jack of Arcades]

How many of those do you think took steroids?

[disjunction]

I have no idea.

Actually, I should invert my request. It would be nice if there were a statistical method that could give a probability of p that a player started using steroids at some point in their career. I don't know if this is possible, obviously it wouldn't work on someone who started use in the minors.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea.

Actually, I should invert my request. It would be nice if there were a statistical method that could give a probability of p that a player started using steroids at some point in their career. I don't know if this is possible, obviously it wouldn't work on someone who started use in the minors.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wouldn't work because we have no idea what the effects of steroids on someone's performance are.

[contentless]

[ QUOTE ]

A. Jeter is a lock


[/ QUOTE ]

You need qualifiers though. At this point in his career (10 years), he isn't. Continue the production for 4-5 more, yes, but that is in no way certain. Recently there have been many articles stating that Garciaparra is most likely no longer on the way to the HoF. Now compare him with Jeter. 2 more seasons worth of games, but Garciaparra's rate stats destroy Jeter's, not to mention that Garciaparra had a much better peak.

No one would argue Garciaparra is currently still a lock. And don't talk about how Garciaparra has 'fallen off'. Other than injuries, his rate statistics are still spanking Jeter's. Plus, he can field grounders.

[Dead]

Hahahha.

Please don't tell me you are suggesting that Garciaperra is better defensively than Jeter.

Your posts are definitely living up to your name.

[contentless]

[ QUOTE ]
Hahahha.

Please don't tell me you are suggesting that Garciaperra is better defensively than Jeter.

Your posts are definitely living up to your name.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://yankeefan.blogspot.com/2004/02/slaying-golden-calf.html

Notable quotes:

"It is, to put it simply, the litmus test of objective analysis. What do you think of Derek Jeter's defense?"

"The numbers are fairly unambiguous. In the past three seasons, Derek Jeter has had three of the seven worst defensive seasons at shortstop, including the two worst. He was 31 runs below average in 2002, and 28 runs below average in 2003--but in 36 fewer games. He's so bad, that his defense completely negates his offense, making him a shortstop of average value. Last season, he was worth .016 runs per game over the average shortstop, or about 2.5 runs over an entire season. He's not in the class of Alex Rodriguez and Nomar Garciaparra, he's in the class of David Eckstein and Jimmy Rollins. And he's still third in that class."

"To put such an awful defensive player at the most important defensive position on the diamond, as the Yankees do with Jeter, borders on madness."

This reminded me of you:
"But when you try to explain to them that he's the worst defensive shortstop in baseball, they'll scoff at you. It can't possibly be true."

Edit: And here is the relevant data, per Tangotiger off the former Baseball Primer, for 2000-2003:

http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html

Punk.

[trotski]

Mattingly/Shoeless Joe/Jim Abbott...the guy had one arm for god's sake!!

[Jack of Arcades]

Well, Garciaparra may not be, because I don't think he can walk right now.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, Garciaparra may not be, because I don't think he can walk right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with the current injury, I give the nod to Nomar. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Gainsay]

I'll agree with Blyeven, but I really think Jim Rice is way over-rated and is short of belonging in the HoF.

Compare him with these players :

George Foster
Fred Lynn
Dwight Evans

I think each of them have careers very similar to Jim Rice, but none of them are considered to be HoF caliber players.

[M2d]

Albert Belle

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Albert Belle

[/ QUOTE ]

don't think he's eligiable yet. But I completely agree. If it weren't for his degenerative hip condition he would be a mortal lock. I think the only thing preventing him from HOF selectionis how he treated the media. He will probably end up in through the vets comitee in many years

[Myrtle]

Luis Tiant.....

If you've ever seen him pitch 'live', you will surely know why.

[Uston]

With all the hardcore baseball fans on here I'm shocked there hasn't been one Tim Raines mention in this thread. He's probably not the best player not in the HOF but he's very close.

[M2d]

not eligible yet. his last year was 2002

[Uston]

Thanks. I had totally forgotten that he kept playing after leaving the Yankees.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Luis Tiant.....

If you've ever seen him pitch 'live', you will surely know why.

[/ QUOTE ]

He goes in a while after Blyleven.

[Myrtle]

...try this little exercise.........

Think of ALL of the pitchers that you have ever SEEN pitch....(live or on TV)...

Who would you pay the most money to see pitch live in their prime?

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bort411]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only thing preventing him from HOF selectionis how he treated the media.

[/ QUOTE ]

He also got caught with a corked bat. If a power hitter's trying to get into the Hall as a proven cheater whose career spanned the steroid era, he's going to need at least 500 HRs (Sosa).