top two pair on double suited flop after i check raise [Archive]

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eappletree

05-12-2005, 09:36 PM

this is my first post so be gentle. table is overall passive and tight. utg+1 and i are the aggressors at the table and CO is weak/passive.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1110)
SB (t1405)
BB (t1490)
Hero (t4060)
UTG+1 (t2985)
MP1 (t1475)
MP2 (t1715)
MP3 (t1525)
CO (t5565)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, 2 folds, MP3 calls t50, CO calls t50, 1 fold, SB completes, 1 fold.

Flop: (t300) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t50, MP3 raises to t100, CO calls t100, SB folds, Hero raises to t600, UTG+1 calls t550, MP3 calls t500, CO raises to t5350, Hero calls t3410 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t2335 (All-In), MP3 calls t875 (All-In).

Final Pot: t14070
Main Pot: t6200 (t6200), between Hero, UTG+1, MP3 and CO.
Pot 2: t4380 (t4380), between Hero, UTG+1 and CO.
Pot 3: t2150 (t2150), between Hero and CO.
Pot 4: t1340 (t1340), returned to CO.

i reraised thinking for sure i was ahead, then the chip leader reraised me all in and it made me hesitate but i felt that i was %80 sure ahead of him. i called all in because even if one of the smaller stacks had me beat i felt i would be breaking even off the chip leader. im slow at calculating pot odds in my head so what was the right play? and how would you have played it differently? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

nightlyraver

05-12-2005, 11:58 PM

Preflop: Don't limp w/ A7s from early position. Ace little suited is a folding hand in no limit from early position. Its real value is in a multiway and you make the nut flush. Forgetting this particular flop, you will lose much more than you'll gain ovetime limping like this. I'll throw in a min. bet in middle or late position after at least two or three have limped in.

Flop: You have no idea where you are in this hand and you're out of position. Also, I don't know how these players will go with a flush draw. If five players are in the hand, you should bet this out righ off the bat for 200. Nine out of ten times, only a set is raising. If I bet 200 into this pot right off and someone makes a big raise, I'm folding 2-pair in this spot unless it's a maniac.

Reasoning: Ask yourself, what could my oponent possibly have? To make a big raise they would have to have something like AA,33,77,A7,A3,73 or a big ace. You have A7 so it's somewhat less likely. 73 is also less likely since that's a total trash hand and no one plays it, save the BB. At this level, many weak players slowplay AA so you can't really discount it since there was no raise. Only a maniac would make a big raise on a drawing hand or even with a big ace. That means that you're only really beating A3 and that's it.

You might ask, how the hell can I fold top two???!!! You can and should unless there are maniacs in the hand. No limit is about patiance. If you are getting aggressive and someone is getting more aggressive, it usually means that you have no chance unless you have the nuts or close thereto, they are on a steal, or they are idiots.

I assume you lost this hand...

gumpzilla

05-13-2005, 12:06 AM

Given this action, I'm thinking you're going to see a set very often. The CO who you've noted as being passive doesn't seem like the kind who is going to be playing to isolate AK or A3 with you, particularly because it doesn't even look like it's going to work given the two jokers who've already called your raise, and a passive player smoothcalling a bet and a raise and then pushing over a reraise that got two callers really doesn't look good. Fold.

(If you really think you're ahead of CO - in other words, if he's not as weak and passive as you're making him out to be - then calling should be fine, since you've got a pretty good chance of picking up lots of the side pots. Also, what was the buy-in? I'm guessing that at least two of the players are in this pot with A9 or a mediocre flush draw, but sadly I think that CO is not one of them.)

adanthar

05-13-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Nine out of ten times, only a set is raising. If I bet 200 into this pot right off and someone makes a big raise, I'm folding 2-pair in this spot unless it's a maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

People limp AQ-AT and Axs *all the time* and most of them raise here. If you folded A7 every time I raised an A73 flop, you'd be giving away money.

Having played it the way you did, however, fold to the 3 bet unless you *know* the CO does not have you beat.

nightlyraver

05-13-2005, 12:15 AM

I disagree with you. If you limp with AQ in MP and the flop comes A73 and an early player fires $200 into a $300 pot, are you seriously making a big raise with players left to act behind you? By big raise, I mean more than $600. If you do, I just think you are overplaying your holding. Most of the time, if a MP comes over the top big in that situation, he has a set.

gr8vertical

05-13-2005, 03:54 AM

Am I wrong in thinking that one of them probably had something along the lines of KQ sooted or KJ sooted. Something along those lines? I see people semibluff a lot with nut flush draws... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

nightlyraver

05-13-2005, 01:32 PM

See my comment about playing with maniacs...

A good player would never semi-bluff big on this flop with such a large field and an A on board. It's just a bad play as you will get called quite often.

eappletree

05-14-2005, 02:53 AM

thanks for the replies:

it was a $11 buy in tournament.

when cards were shown continuing to the turn, utg+1 had a king high flush draw, MP3 had jack high flush draw, and CO had AQ, board hit running tens and CO won the pot.