When is calling raises with pairs profitable?

If you are on the button, how many callers do you generally need to call a raise with small pairs and suited connectors? For example, if there is an early raise and 3 callers, would calling with 33 or 54 be profitable?

My general feeling is that if 5 players will see a flop these hands are profitable but would like to know your comments.

Regards, poohbear

General rule of thumb is never call an early raiser with anything less than you would raise with in early position. The number now works against you since they are all calling two bets cold. Had they limped in then seeing the flop would make since.

[cybertilt]

[cpk]

It is OK to call 2 bets cold before the flop if you have a hand you would've raised with anyway, but you have no urgent desire to "limit the field." Or perhaps you wish to conceal your strength. Examples: AQs, KK. In a loose game: ATs, TT. Note that it would also be OK to 3-bet with a hand like AQs or KK.

Note that a small pocket pair only meets these criteria if there are several players already in the pot. Say you're on the button with 44 and the action is 5 limpers and a raiser. You could probably have raised on the button with 44 in this spot, so now you can cold-call. [Sometimes I have 3-bet in this spot, becuase I know people are weak and will check to me to allow me to peel the turn card off for free.]

There are just not many situtations where cold-calling is correct. Most of the time, it's either raise again or fold. Ask yourself, 'would I have raised here anyway?' If not, just muck it. You'll save yourself money and aggravation.

[cpk]

Oh, and to answer your question straight-up, I'd want 6-7 guaranteed callers to cold call. The raise cuts my implied odds in half, but the current pot odds are still juicy enough in this case.

[Ed Miller]

It could be correct to cold-call one raise with a small pocket pair on the button if you are sure there will be at least six opponents and that it won't be raised again, but don't even bother. Honestly, you would be giving up very little if you decided that you would never cold-call a raise with a pocket pair smaller than TT. You have much more to lose by making mistakes in these situations than you have to gain by playing perfectly.

Don't cold-call raises with suited connectors... they thrive on implied odds much more so than the small pocket pairs and the implied odds are just destroyed by even one raise. As for 54s... that hand is barely playable.. if it is playable at all... for one bet on the button... let alone two.

[skp]

I am not directing this comment at you but to the posters on this forum generally:

The raise or fold mantra gets tossed around here way too much IMO. But in practice, I see very few players play this way. I think that there's a reason for that: Calling has a place in this game and can, more often than most people care to admit on this board, be the best play.

Doing anything other than calling with 33 on the button where you have a UTG raiser and three coldcallers is not doing the right thing, IMO. To put it another way, calling is clearly the best play.

I would probably also call with 76s although now, the choice between folding and calling is much closer. In certain games (i.e. aggressive postflop games), folding would be the better play.

Anyway, I think that people have misinterpreted the HFPAP advice "if you are considering calling, it's almost always better to raise". Or something like that...maybe I shouldn't use quotes because I don't have the book in front of me and I may be misquoting it. I can tell you that Mason and David would call with 33 in this spot. In fact, I recall a hand where David coldcalled with 33 when he was sitting to the immediate left of the UTG raiser. I forget who posted the hand. Anyway, I think he went on to make quads or something. But the point is that he felt that game conditions were right to coldcall with 33. Presumably, he anticipated a multiway pot despite the early raise. In my games, I have often been the first coldcaller with 33 on the same footing.

Calling is not an evil thing - not all instances of calling is indicative of weak play. Often, it's the best play you may have at your disposal.

[cpk]

There are times when cold-calling is correct, you are right. This is not one of them.

I don't see how cold-calling a raise vs. 4 at 4.75:1 immediate pot odds can ever be correct. Ever. Maybe if 2 people will cold-call after you and never raise.

Your 33 is simply dominated. Unimproved, you will either win a small pot or lose a big one. You don't have the odds to improve.

3-betting is the second worst option (folding is best). You might get an extra whack at making a set if everyone checks to you on the flop. You might get the odds to draw at it anyway if you get bet into.

[Dynasty]

I don't see how cold-calling a raise vs. 4 at 4.75:1 immediate pot odds can ever be correct...You don't have the odds to improve

Playing small (and medium) pocket pairs has nothing to do with what pot odds you are getting pre-flop. These hands are playable when you are up against opponents who will put in multiple bets post-flop with the second best hand.

With 33, you want a Kc,Th,3c flop so that players are putting in lots of bets with AK (pre-flop raiser), flush draws, and straight draws (as long as the draws don't get there /forums/images/icons/wink.gif ).

Calling with 33 is reasonable.

I'm one of the pump or dump mantraites. I know of very few players in my game who wouldn't do better if they never cold-called a raise.

However, the nice part about calling with 3-3 on the button is that you're pretty sure there's not going to be a 3-bet, you have position for every round, and you either hit your set on the flop (and it's unlikely anyone else holds a 3) or you get out without further damage.

One drawback is that, as Mason once pointed out, if you play well you don't have to worry much about losing set over set. Cold-calling with small pairs leads you open to exactly this possibility, and those losses are usually huge ones.

Then again, in a similar situation I'd certainly call from the big blind for one bet, and I'd sure as hell rather be on the button.

[MichaelD]

SKP,

Excellent post.

Without going into specifics of any particular example, as I think they all depend on the situation, I believe you are correct that calling or playing in a passive manner can be the best play more often than most thinking players realize.

I will emphasize the term thinking players because of the obvious tendency of the non-thinking players to always call every hand and this is obviously not correct.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[cpk]

I like your rationale when there are more players. Small pocket pairs are dangerous even when they flop well. Full houses made by these hands are too-often counterfeited. How'd you like to make 3's full on the flop only to lose to 84o on the river with a board of 443x8? This is substantially less likely to happen with a medium pocket pair, and it's extremely rare with large ones.

Who needs it?

This is why I demand a huge potential payoff when I play these hands for more than one bet. John Vorhaus said it best--Little cards are poison!

[DeezNuts]

If the reason you don't play small pocket pairs for a raise is because you are afraid you will run into a bigger full house, then I think you need to rethink your strategy. And here I thought I was weak-tight.

DN

[Dynasty]

Small pocket pairs are dangerous even when they flop well. Full houses made by these hands are too-often counterfeited

Total nonsense. You're just playing scared.

[M.B.E.]

I agree.

I don't have HPFAP in front of me, but I believe it says you should rarely cold-call a preflop raise if no one else has entered the hand. But if someone else has either limped before the raiser or cold-called after him, that's different.

For example, suppose UTG limps, next player raises, next player cold-calls, and you are next with 33. This is not a pump-or-dump situation: I'm happy to cold-call here. (Depending on how tough the game is I might also cold-call with suited connectors 87s or bigger, and some suited one-gappers like T8s or bigger.)