Just one of those days [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Pocket Trips

05-12-2005, 04:19 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 5 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, BB folds.

I just called here looking for over calls

Turn: (3.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Ok i hit my boat so unless someonew has quad 8s i have got this pot right?

River: (7.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Ugh the absolute worst card in the deck for me... should i have still bet here figuring he would've shown aggression on the turn if he had an 8?
Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Jd Qs (two pair, tens and eights).
Hero has 5h 5c (full house, fives full of tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 7.75 BB.

aron

05-12-2005, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok i hit my boat so unless someonew has quad 8s i have got this pot right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Or pocket tens.

I'd bet that river.

-aron

gopnik

05-12-2005, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet that river.

[/ QUOTE ]
What calling hands do you beat?
I might raise the flop here.

Buckmulligan

05-12-2005, 04:29 PM

why no river bet?

itsmesteve

05-12-2005, 04:30 PM

my gut reaction is to bet, but unless he has specifically 99 here ( i'm assuming he'd raise JJ-AA preflop), I can't think of one hand you beat that might call you, so i guess the check is good.

scotty34

05-12-2005, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why no river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is going to call?

davelin

05-12-2005, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why no river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is going to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be surprised, sometimes you see A-high here. 99 possibly as well.

turaho

05-12-2005, 04:35 PM

I'd raise the flop and make the flush/straight draws call two cold.

Bet the river, fold to a raise.

2+2 wannabe

05-12-2005, 04:37 PM

betting this river is terrible advice

moot

05-12-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the flop and make the flush/straight draws call two cold.

Bet the river, fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

itsmesteve

05-12-2005, 04:38 PM

how often do you see it though? hero has shown aggression throughout the hand. it would have to be over 50% of the time hero bets. he won't always be three bet by an 8, but will be by a ten. i think that makes it about 60% and don't know that its that frequent.

edit- i'm referring to a naked Ace or 99 calling.

Buckmulligan

05-12-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What is going to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you get more calls from weaker hands on the river with the ten falling than without it. That ten validates a call from a lot of Ax hands and even Kx hands.

tiltaholic

05-12-2005, 04:40 PM

you must raise that flop.
and in the complete absence of reads i check behind on the river.
reads are important here. who was villian?

moot

05-12-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
betting this river is terrible advice

[/ QUOTE ]

WHY?

If he had an 8 he likely would have reraised the turn (though not always).

If he had a T he likely would have bet the river. I find that players almost NEVER go for a check-raise here. They're too afraid that you'll check behind because your trip 8s (technically a boat) don't look so good anymore.

You should bet this. Players see 2 pair on the board and they will often call with an A or K kicker (sometimes evev worse). This is a perfect time to value bet.

itsmesteve

05-12-2005, 04:42 PM

a flush draw would be all but getting the correct odds anyway, and then would have the odds to continue on the turn. the flop is not the time for the raise, the turn would be.

johnc

05-12-2005, 04:44 PM

I'd actually call the turn bet and go for the overcall (same #BB profit as your raise & call). MP1 had something weak and just might have called. Also, IMHO your turn raise slowed down UTG+1 costing you 1 or two river bets. I believe this to be a case where aggression potentially cost you BBs.

This post is in reference to the "originally" posted hand.

zCereal

05-12-2005, 04:45 PM

you call THAT a bad beat?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (11 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, UTG caps, UTG+2 calls $4.50 (All-In), Hero calls.

River: (18.62 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 20.62 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Kd Td (full house, tens full of fives).
UTG+2 has Kh 5c (four of a kind, fives).
Hero has Tc 9c (full house, tens full of fives).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 16.87 BB. Hero wins 1.87 BB. UTG wins 1.87 BB.

car ramrod

05-12-2005, 04:45 PM

I would bet the river, my guess is he will call and he doesn't have a T

moot

05-12-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
a flush draw would be all but getting the correct odds anyway, and then would have the odds to continue on the turn. the flop is not the time for the raise, the turn would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather raise the flop. I don't think a turn raise protects against a flush, anyway. Someone bets the turn, you raise, a flush draw is still getting more than enough odds (the pot's going to be 3 handed, and their implied odds are sufficient).

itsmesteve

05-12-2005, 04:51 PM

on the flop a flush is getting 7.5:2 if we raise, on the turn 5:2. i don't think the turn odds are sufficient for a flush. generally they're not going away anyway, so i'd rather make them play incorrectly.

OldYoda

05-12-2005, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting this river is terrible advice

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that players almost NEVER go for a check-raise here. They're too afraid that you'll check behind because your trip 8s (technically a boat) don't look so good anymore.

You should bet this. Players see 2 pair on the board and they will often call with an A or K kicker (sometimes evev worse). This is a perfect time to value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. And you left money on the table not raising the flop.

johnc

05-12-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
betting this river is terrible advice

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain.

aron

05-13-2005, 03:35 AM

Apart from the A high hand that might call you also beat lower pocket pairs, and preflop misplayed JJ-AA.

-aron

Aaron W.

05-13-2005, 11:48 AM

I don't really buy the "bet the river" argument.

I'd rather just check behind. For those who are saying worse hands will call, there are very few of them that will. Maybe ace high, maybe a pocket pair, but there's nothing else. The value bet here is going to very thin -- compare this value bet to when the board shows something like 58T8A. And it's -EV if you can't comfortably fold to a check-raise. I hate folding to a river check-raise on the scare card because it's too great of a bluffing opportunity. So I'm not going to put myself in that situation by betting.

Also, consider the action. Unless villain is a LAG, he doesn't have nonsense because he bet the flop and turn. A hand with a ten in it is quite reasonable, and more reasonable than ace-high hands (Axs, big aces) or pocket pairs better than 88 (99, AA-JJ -- but those probably would raise preflop).

deception5

05-13-2005, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you call THAT a bad beat?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, 9.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (11 SB) T, 5, T (5 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5 (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, UTG caps, UTG+2 calls $4.50 (All-In), Hero calls.

River: (18.62 BB) 5 (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising this river.

deception5

05-13-2005, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 5, 5.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 5 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8, 5, T (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, BB folds.

I just called here looking for over calls

Turn: (3.75 BB) 8 (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Ok i hit my boat so unless someonew has quad 8s i have got this pot right?

River: (7.75 BB) T (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scary flop, gives a lot of draws. You need to charge them now - plenty of gutshots/flush draws will call. Raise here every time. Even if someone hits the straight or flush you still have full house outs.

The way this hand played out you can't put utg+1 on anything. He bet the flop and was called. He bet the turn and as soon as it was raised he called and checked the river. With this betting pattern I think it is extremely likely that he has nothing but may call with almost any high-card thinking "my kicker is probably better with 2 pair". So I'm betting the river against all but a known tricky opponent.

car ramrod

05-13-2005, 02:39 PM

After looking back over this, I guess without a read its kind of tough to bet. I would bet in the heat of the battle, but after looking at it, with no reads, a check might be best. A check raise would be really bad.

But..
I think he could easily have bet the flop and turn here with Ax, KQ, KJ, 22, 33, 44, 66, 77, and would call a river bet with all these.

I think a raise on the flop would have been the best play, as the hand plays different. The way it is now UTG1 is just betting, doesn't say a whole lot about strength for most players at this level.

free=good

05-13-2005, 05:37 PM

Haven't read others responses.

I 100% raise this flop. I can't tell you how many times a slowplayed bottom set has stuck me and you also have the flush and straight draws to defend against. Make them pay to draw. As for the river, It depends a little on reads. If they are capable of a c/r, then I check it like you did, figuring there's a good chance of them holding a 10 or a weak 8 (unlikely). If not, bet it and hope they were on flush/straight draw.

Aaron W.

05-13-2005, 05:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After looking back over this, I guess without a read its kind of tough to bet. I would bet in the heat of the battle, but after looking at it, with no reads, a check might be best. A check raise would be really bad.

But..
I think he could easily have bet the flop and turn here with Ax, KQ, KJ, 22, 33, 44, 66, 77, and would call a river bet with all these.

I think a raise on the flop would have been the best play, as the hand plays different. The way it is now UTG1 is just betting, doesn't say a whole lot about strength for most players at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time thinking that K-high will call, but that's a judgment call that I'll just leave as-is.

As for the rest of those pocket pairs, you realize that they're playing TT88 with a sub-ten kicker (playing the board for 44-22), right? I really don't think you're getting paid off by those hands.