The ultimate format for a holdem tournament for experienced players

[Runner Runner]

I don't know if this is the case with anyone else, but in the home game I play in, the players have improved quite a bit from say 2 years ago. We used to play our tournaments no limit and have found that this format has turned it into too much of a 2 card game late in the tournament as the blinds increase. Even early in the tournament, there are not many flops seen because of the ability to make overbets preflop. No limit holdem is fine when you are playing online sng's or a cardroom game, but when you are playing a home game with your buddies, you should want an action game where you get to make a lot more decisions. We tried pot limit and it helped increase action a bit, but we found the following multiple betting limit format to work the best:

Preflop - Limit betting
Flop - Half pot limit
Turn - Pot limit
River - No limit

We found this format to work great in adding action to our tournaments and although you will see more suckouts, it definitely forces players to make more decisions after the flop and play an overall more skillful game. Try it out.

[jojobinks]

as soon as wsop gets rid of all the fish, maybe they'll move to this format. i hear this is how they did it back in the day, before all the noobs started playing. [/sarcasm]

there's a reason why you should be able to overbet pre-flop. it's to make this a game of skill. playing a capped pot with 45s can't really be a mistake if you're risking very few chips preflop to stack someone off later.

your structure most definitely will increase action; i'm not sure that's the same thing as making it the "ultimate" structure for experienced players.

[Runner Runner]

[ QUOTE ]
there's a reason why you should be able to overbet pre-flop. it's to make this a game of skill. playing a capped pot with 45s can't really be a mistake if you're risking very few chips preflop to stack someone off later.

your structure most definitely will increase action; i'm not sure that's the same thing as making it the "ultimate" structure for experienced players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right that having the ability to overbet preflop brings an element of skill into the game. Unfortunately when all your buddies are skillful and disciplined at that part of the game, No limit becomes dull and is reduced to a 2 card game, (unless you have time to run a long tournament with deep stacks).

This is why I think this structure is great for home games, where you aren't necessarily looking for the structure that maximizes profit as much as the one that maximizes decision making and action. This game is very skillful though because of the increased decisions to be made on all streets and the implied odds that drawing hands get that you brought up.

[Easy E]

Isn't Rolf Slotboom going to sue you for copywrite infringement? This is very similar to his potnopine holdem suggestion from a few years ago.

<font color="blue">Before the flop the betting is just like in any other limit poker game. After the flop the limits double right away (that is, if the blinds are $10 and $20, then the betting units on the flop are $40 instead of the usual $20), on the turn pot-limit betting is possible and no-limit on the river. </font>

[Mojo Tooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately when all your buddies are skillful and disciplined at that part of the game, No limit becomes dull and is reduced to a 2 card game, (unless you have time to run a long tournament with deep stacks).


[/ QUOTE ]

So it sounds like nobody wants to call a big bet? That has nothing to do with experience and everything to do with trying to get either a) more flops, or b) longer tournament.

Given your statement that you're assuming your players don't want a longer tournament, your format sounds at least interesting. For my game, I would just as soon slow down the blind timers. For one reason if nothing else: dealers (who are also players) have enough to deal with just keeping track of normal no-limit bets. "Half-pot" and pot limit bets would just confuse the hell out of everyone.

[hachkc]

Why not just play a limit tournament or something like a spread limit tournament (10-20 Blinds with min bet = BB and max bet = 2-4x BB). This would be a lot easier to manage and still bring in the option of big bets. I would say the minimum starting chips should be 100xBB.

[BISCO]

this is the dumbest [censored] idea i have heard in a long time.

[TrailofTears]

So you can't protect against draws but they can pump the pot when the draws hit? This structure makes no sense. You can't allow for cheap drawing but make showdowns really expensive. One of the main reasons limit poker works is because you can draw cheaply but the implied odds are limited. In NL, OTOH, pot manipulation is where it's at. This structure destroys the best qualities of both games.

-T

[RPMick]

Make your tournament a rebuy. Allows players to take more chances and adds to the prize pool.

-Ryan

[warewulf]

Must be absolute hell trying to explain these things to new players!

"I'm all in! What? I can only bet the pot? Dammit!"

[Runner Runner]

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So you can't protect against draws but they can pump the pot when the draws hit? This structure makes no sense. You can't allow for cheap drawing but make showdowns really expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? This forces people to mix things up, by playing their hands more deceptively. Interesting situations in poker arise when a player is forced into making a tough decision later in a hand. This format promotes those situations.

[ QUOTE ]
One of the main reasons limit poker works is because you can draw cheaply but the implied odds are limited. In NL, OTOH, pot manipulation is where it's at. This structure destroys the best qualities of both games.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can still manipulate the pot using this structure, and if you play well and make good laydowns you reduce the implied odds of opponents drawing against you. I don't think this structure destroys any qualities of limit or no limit it simply brings out the best of both games.

If you throw any kind of limitations on bet size in poker, it is those who adjust best to the limitations who will win.
This format will break new ground in promoting good decision making rather then the coin flipping of the allin game in NL and the "easy call on the river cause I am getting 15-1" in limit.

[bubbafry]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there's a reason why you should be able to overbet pre-flop. it's to make this a game of skill. playing a capped pot with 45s can't really be a mistake if you're risking very few chips preflop to stack someone off later.

your structure most definitely will increase action; i'm not sure that's the same thing as making it the "ultimate" structure for experienced players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right that having the ability to overbet preflop brings an element of skill into the game. Unfortunately when all your buddies are skillful and disciplined at that part of the game, No limit becomes dull and is reduced to a 2 card game, (unless you have time to run a long tournament with deep stacks).

This is why I think this structure is great for home games, where you aren't necessarily looking for the structure that maximizes profit as much as the one that maximizes decision making and action. This game is very skillful though because of the increased decisions to be made on all streets and the implied odds that drawing hands get that you brought up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you're saying, you do get to make more decisions, but my guess would be those decisions would be a lot easier. Any OESD or flush draw would be almost automatic calls on the flop and turn since you would be getting at least 3:1 pot odds and huge implied odds. Bluffing would be much more difficult early on. In NLHE, there are no easy decisions. I've never tried your system, so I don't know for sure, but it seems like the best strategy would be just to be always be on a draw. As someone mentioned before, it would play a lot like limit, but reward drawing and make the pots huge. It seems like the tournament would always come down to big pair (or even trips) vs draw. It would always go down to the river, so a huge part of both players stacks would be in the pot, so whoever gets lucky on the river wins the tournament.

Maybe a way to make an NLHE tourney more enjoyable would be to slow down the blinds towards the end of the tournament. It probably wouldn't increase the time to much, but would allow for more skillful play at the end, rather than a bunch of all-ins. And, not to sound like a prick (because I'm no master poker player anything, I'm sure you guys are probably better than me), rather than change the game, maybe you should just try to get better. If I'm understanding you correctly, if you and your friends play a similar style, then figure out a way to beat 'em. I think it would be awesome to have a bunch of friends who were really good at NLHE, because then you could really improve each other's games and talk to each other about strategy. Don't know, just my thoughts.