The guessing about how much party is making is over!!!

[Cubswin]

From egaming review:

"Poker giant Party Gaming has revealed 2004 profits of US$391m and appointed two non-executive directors in a sure sign it is going ahead with a US$10bn listing on the London Stock Exchange this summer."

Im sure they will many stories about this coming out today/tomorrow... will keep you all posted.

cubs

[ismisus]

They out 400 million out of degenerates already? I wonder how many years it will take before everyone goes broke?

p.s. it will happen, games do get tougher every month

[Sintax]

Party Poker - A million a day in profit and counting...

[Sintax]

P.S.S.

That was 400 million last year only....

[sublime]

p.s. it will happen

no, it wont

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
They out 400 million out of degenerates already? I wonder how many years it will take before everyone goes broke?

p.s. it will happen, games do get tougher every month

[/ QUOTE ]

"There's a sucker born every minute" David Hannum (http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbarnum.html)

[Baulucky]

This is much lower than previous estimates. Isn't it?.

[sumdumguy]

Something doesn't make sense with the 391m number for profits. Granted.. I desperately need sleep, but it just doesn't sound right. Shouldn't it be way higher?

Looking at the Pokerpulse numbers, this morning Party has 4,535 real money players at 637 tables. Their 24 hour peak was 19,318 real money players.. so I'd guess the average hour for Party has maybe 10,000 real money players at 1,400 tables.

So, if we take 1,400 tables x 55 hands per hour x 24 hours x 365 days = 674,520,000 real money hands per year. If we reduce Party's rake by 50 cents a hand it would reduce their earnings by $337,260,000.. which is awful close to their net profits. Something's not right.

They cannot be making 50 cents a hand and relying exclusively on their tournaments and sitngo's to make money. I'd think they have grossly under reported their earnings or grossly overpaid owners and execs such that they are all billionaires.

Before someone bashes me.. I truly desperately need sleep.. but this number just looks too freakin small.

[kenberman]

you are assuming net profit = rake, which is very false. Party needs to pay the salaries of all employees, bonuses, advertising, etc....all of this reduces rake (essentially, sales) into profit.

Party's rake last year was estimated to be around $1B. A net profit figure of $391M is a huge net profit %, but it not that surprising.

[nnoobi]

[ QUOTE ]
This is much lower than previous estimates. Isn't it?.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be if previous estimates were how much rake (or revenue) Party collects.

This amount is profits -- after all costs (operational, advertising, executive salaries) have been paid.

[_And1_]

Result for 2004 $391'', estimate was at $350''.

The introduction is estimated at july this year, and for a value of $10'''. This will make Party Gaming the largest "game"company, second biggest for comparision Sportingbet PLC (owners of Paradise Poker) have a value at $2'''.

Note that partys report was showing a nettomargin at 65% , as turnover was "only" $602''!

[Sintax]

As an engineering student, I missed out on all the economics and business classes in college.

If Party grossed 1 billion and profited 390 mil, does that mean they had about a 35% profit margin?

I googled it real quick and this came up on Motley Fool:


[ QUOTE ]
Net Profit Margins

Average net profit margin for S&P 500 companies ...... 7.0%
Average net profit margin for all Nasdaq companies ... 3.1%



[/ QUOTE ]

If thats correct, I really hope this market corrects itself sooner than later.....

[nsdjoe]

[ QUOTE ]

If Party grossed 1 billion and profited 390 mil, does that mean they had about a 35% profit margin?

I googled it real quick and this came up on Motley Fool:


[ QUOTE ]
Net Profit Margins

Average net profit margin for S&P 500 companies ...... 7.0%
Average net profit margin for all Nasdaq companies ... 3.1%



[/ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

great googley-moogley!

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
you are assuming net profit = rake, which is very false. Party needs to pay the salaries of all employees, bonuses, advertising, etc....all of this reduces rake (essentially, sales) into profit.

Party's rake last year was estimated to be around $1B. A net profit figure of $391M is a huge net profit %, but it not that surprising.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that Party's single biggest expense is the share of the rake that goes to the skins. I am making these numbers up (someone who knows better can correct me), but if half of the players on 'Party' are actually playing on skins and those skins collect half the rake generated by their players, then that accounts for $250M of the $609M in estimated expenses. The vast majorty of the rest is probably bonuses, affiliate payments and other advertising. The 'corporate overhead' is miniscule.

I would like to know how many unique active players (played in the last month, say) they have. I'm sure that and much else will come out in the IPO process.

[Weebl]

Congratulations Dikshit!!!!

[Cubswin]

Was in a bit of a hurry this morning so i couldnt post the entire article then.... but here it is now....

Party unveils profits as it moves towards IPO

Poker giant Party Gaming has revealed 2004 profits of US$391m and appointed two non-executive directors in a sure sign it is going ahead with a US$10bn listing on the London Stock Exchange this summer.

Unaudited EBIDTA profits for Party Gaming, before share option expenses, are ahead of market expectations of US$350m, and are also a stunning 65% of annual revenues of US$602m.

The firm, which is the parent company of Party Poker, is now widely expected to push ahead with plans for an IPO in July.

The valuation of Party Gaming is believed to be in the region of US$10bn, which will make it the largest listed online gaming company at five times the size of Sportingbet.

Party made the announcement after completing its strategic review, which was undertaken by investment banks Investec and Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein (DrKW).

But the firm said it has solely retained DrKW to advise on the potential float to the surprise of some analysts who had expected both banks to handle what will probably be the largest IPO on the London Stock Exchange this year.

A well placed city source has reported Investec pulled out of its relationship with Party.

But the firm said there was no truth to the market rumours and it still had a good relationship with the bank.

A Party spokesman would not confirm plans for an IPO, but a successful listing would be hugely important for the egaming sector.

Several major egaming firms, including Party’s Gibraltar neighbours Cassava Enterprises, are known to be keen to go public.

And many smaller firms who are looking at a listing will watch how the market receives the party listing with great interest.

Party's appointment of two heavyweight non-executive directors is also a significant step in the direction of an IPO.

Michael Jackson, currently chairman of software firm Sage Group, was named as non-executive chairman.

And Brian Larcombe, formerly chief executive of venture capital fund 3i Group, was named as non-executive deputy chairman.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Congratulations Dikshit!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Net Profit Margins

Average net profit margin for S&P 500 companies ...... 7.0%
Average net profit margin for all Nasdaq companies ... 3.1%



[/ QUOTE ]

If thats correct, I really hope this market corrects itself sooner than later.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been preaching that economic theory dictates that Party is going to make alot less money per customer over the coming years. You just can't sustain this kind of profit margin in a free market.

[kenberman]

could you post the link?

[og5]

[ QUOTE ]

I've been preaching that economic theory dictates that Party is going to make alot less money per customer over the coming years. You just can't sustain this kind of profit margin in a free market.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party is a virtual monoploy right? What kind of margins are Microsoft and other monpolies averaging?

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]

Michael Jackson, currently chairman of software firm Sage Group, was named as non-executive chairman.


[/ QUOTE ]

So Party will start offering "12 max" tables?

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Michael Jackson, currently chairman of software firm Sage Group, was named as non-executive chairman.


[/ QUOTE ]


hahahahaha he shoot he scores!
So Party will start offering "12 max" tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Kevin K.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I've been preaching that economic theory dictates that Party is going to make alot less money per customer over the coming years. You just can't sustain this kind of profit margin in a free market.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party is a virtual monoploy right? What kind of margins are Microsoft and other monpolies averaging?

[/ QUOTE ]

Party is not a monopoly. Yes, they have a huge market share, but they don't have control of any particular product or service. There are plenty of sites out there and there will be plenty more, I am sure.

[sfwusc]

KO Profit Margin (ttm): 21.32% (from yahoo.com)

They are 100 years old. No rule says they have to go to low profit margin.

-SFWUSC

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]

Party is a virtual monoploy right? What kind of margins are Microsoft and other monpolies averaging?


[/ QUOTE ]

neither party nor microsoft are monopolies. and its not even close. and i very much doubt microsoft is coming even close to the 35% profit margin someone above quoted.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
They out 400 million out of degenerates already? I wonder how many years it will take before everyone goes broke?

p.s. it will happen, games do get tougher every month

[/ QUOTE ]

That's like saying all of America will eventually go broke because of how much money they spend on fast food. Money circulates.

[TheHammer24]

Thats just disgusting. It's criminal to believe they can sustain that kind of profit margain over the next couple years. They will remain number 1 in online gaming, but if other sites pick it up, party will be forced to either reduce rakes or more likely, increase boni in order to sustain their share of the market. It just free market logic. New entrepeneurs will see the money in online gaming and the industry will be saturated with sites. The only way they will be able to stay afloat is to earn x amount of rake which will come from x about of players. The only way they can attract players is by offering the best product/deal. This in turn translates to either lower rake or more boni. It may not happen in the next couple years, but within ten years I predict this will be the case. Party's profit margin will be down by then.

[Freakin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They out 400 million out of degenerates already? I wonder how many years it will take before everyone goes broke?

p.s. it will happen, games do get tougher every month

[/ QUOTE ]

That's like saying all of America will eventually go broke because of how much money they spend on fast food. Money circulates.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Look at a single table. if no new players showed up, everyone would go broke.

Freakin

[og5]

[ QUOTE ]
neither party nor microsoft are monopolies. and its not even close. and i very much doubt microsoft is coming even close to the 35% profit margin someone above quoted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Virutal monopoly = driven by customers (who buys linux?)

Someone posted a link that showed the traffic numbers each site generated. Party was #1 by a huge margin with more traffic then the next 4 or 5 sites combined. With so much market share I think they qualify as a customer driven monopoly.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats just disgusting. It's criminal to believe they can sustain that kind of profit margain over the next couple years. They will remain number 1 in online gaming, but if other sites pick it up, party will be forced to either reduce rakes or more likely, increase boni in order to sustain their share of the market. It just free market logic. New entrepeneurs will see the money in online gaming and the industry will be saturated with sites. The only way they will be able to stay afloat is to earn x amount of rake which will come from x about of players. The only way they can attract players is by offering the best product/deal. This in turn translates to either lower rake or more boni. It may not happen in the next couple years, but within ten years I predict this will be the case. Party's profit margin will be down by then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you don't realize how INCREDIBLE their profit margin is. At 35% currently, they could lose two thirds of that and still far outperform nearly every other corporation in the world making over 1B in gross revenue.

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Michael Jackson, currently chairman of software firm Sage Group, was named as non-executive chairman.


[/ QUOTE ]

So Party will start offering "12 max" tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Literally made me choke hazelnut latte into my nose...nh.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
and i very much doubt microsoft is coming even close to the 35% profit margin someone above quoted.

[/ QUOTE ]
According to MSN (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/hilite.asp?Symbol=MSFT) they have a net profit margin of 28.9%. This would be *MUCH* higher if they just stuck to office/windows and didn't throw so much money away on things like xbox and msn.

[TheHammer24]

But new players will show up, and those who get busted will leave. You incorrectly presuppose that everyone buys in the internet gambling once, goes broke and quits. This is incorrect.

People, the producers, buy in many times because they play for entertainment value as opposed to making profit. People who go to bars drop 50 dollars a night and come back every weekend. They do it for fun. The money from rake goes to party who spends it where the producers work, who go and deposit back into party to have a little fun.

[villafan]

The margin on Windows was a fantastic 86% a couple of years ago.

http://www.ananova.com/business/story/sm_711827.html?menu

"Consumer advocates have criticised the scale of software Microsoft Corp's 86% profit margin on Windows, which runs nine out of 10 personal computers worldwide.

"It's astronomical," said Mark Cooper, research director at Consumer Federation of America, which had pressed for tougher court sanctions against billionaire Bill Gates' group.

"You have got a profit margin, a pile of cash, that is clearly illegally obtained."

Microsoft filed a quarterly profit report last Thursday with the Securities and Exchange Commission, which detailed for the first time the size of the profit margin it makes on Windows.

The figures showed Microsoft raked in $2.89 billion in sales of Windows programs in the three months to Sept 30, with an operating profit of $2.48 billion.

The operating profit was equal to 85.82% of sales, up from a profit margin of 82.27% margin a year earlier."

[lorinda]

[ QUOTE ]
Party's appointment of two heavyweight non-executive directors is also a significant step in the direction of an IPO.

Michael Jackson, currently chairman of software firm Sage Group, was named as non-executive chairman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cubs, help, is that THE Michael Jackson (no noobs, not the singer, the scumbag poker site dude?)

Lori

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
The margin on Windows was a fantastic 86% a couple of years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm too lazy too look it up, but the current numbers for windows/office shoud still be about the same.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The margin on Windows was a fantastic 86% a couple of years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm too lazy too look it up, but the current numbers for windows/office shoud still be about the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

all these numbers can't just be compared from industry to industry. Software companies, like Pharma companies, have giant R&D expenses which aren't always factored into a 'product margin'.

[o0mr_bill0o]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party's appointment of two heavyweight non-executive directors is also a significant step in the direction of an IPO.

Michael Jackson, currently chairman of software firm Sage Group, was named as non-executive chairman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cubs, help, is that THE Michael Jackson (no noobs, not the singer, the scumbag poker site dude?)

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* when i hear someone say "is that THE michael jackson?", my first thought is that they're talking about the beer expert...

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Michael Jackson, currently chairman of software firm Sage Group, was named as non-executive chairman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cubs, help, is that THE Michael Jackson (no noobs, not the singer, the scumbag poker site dude?)

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

10/05/2005 - Sage pre-tax profit up 16% to £100.6 million for half year ended 31 March 2005

ACT! and Peachtree software among its US products.

Don't know if the CEO would be the one you are thinking about.

[mcozzy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Gaming has revealed 2004 profits of US$391m

[/ QUOTE ]

That's way more than my 2004 profits.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
Software companies, like Pharma companies, have giant R&D expenses which aren't always factored into a 'product margin'.


[/ QUOTE ]
The 86% should cover direct R&D for windows. Where the development costs for something like IE fall I don't know (it is part of the OS according to MS so one would assume they would report it with their client division...)

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Software companies, like Pharma companies, have giant R&D expenses which aren't always factored into a 'product margin'.


[/ QUOTE ]
The 86% should cover direct R&D for windows. Where the development costs for something like IE fall I don't know (it is part of the OS according to MS so one would assume they would report it with their client division...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless, you need to be very careful about comparing margins, as simple accounting can greatly alter/obscure the result. these questions are hardly black and white, despite recent accounting scandals.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
Party is a virtual monoploy right? What kind of margins are Microsoft and other monpolies averaging?

[/ QUOTE ]

Paradise had about the same share of the market once upon a time as Party does today. Party blew them right out of the water. Someone can just as easily blow Party out of the water. It's an exceedingly low entry barrier in online poker. (Unlike Operating Systems, which has an high entry barrier.)

[FMMonty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party is a virtual monoploy right? What kind of margins are Microsoft and other monpolies averaging?

[/ QUOTE ]

Paradise had about the same share of the market once upon a time as Party does today. Party blew them right out of the water. Someone can just as easily blow Party out of the water. It's an exceedingly low entry barrier in online poker. (Unlike Operating Systems, which has an high entry barrier.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn right!

Watch this space, we're coming! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Synergistic Explosions]

They raked a billion dollars last year? This year they are twice as big, so it will be 2 billion dollars?

Do they plan on leaving any money on the table for the players to win in the future?

[sumdumguy]

No.. no. Another poster already corrected us: it's only around 600mn gross revenue. I was thinking along the same lines.. not possible to net only 391m if they raked 1bn.

[Cubswin]

could you post the link?

i dont have a link as this was sent via their newsletter...

[Cubswin]

Cubs, help, is that THE Michael Jackson (no noobs, not the singer, the scumbag poker site dude?)

Im drawing a black here lori... i feel i should remember THE michael jackson but i cant recall the story or anything about him... throw me a bone here...

cubs

[Cubswin]

PartyGaming fuels IPO talk as names new chairman
Thu May 12, 2005 1:42 PM BST link (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=businessNews&storyID=2005-05-12T124241Z_01_BOW245724_RTRUKOC_0_LEISURE-PARTYGAMING.xml)

By Pete Harrison

LONDON (Reuters) - The world's biggest online poker company, PartyGaming, fuelled speculation it was nearing one of London's largest initial public offerings in five years by adding two high-profile executives to its board on Thursday.

PartyGaming said it had appointed Michael Jackson, currently chairman of Sage Group <SGE.L>, as non-executive chairman and Brian Larcombe, former chief executive of 3i Group <III.L>, as its non-executive deputy chairman.

"To me that says game on for an IPO," said analyst Robin Chhabra at Evolution Securities. "If you weren't going to list, why would you hire two city-friendly people like Michael Jackson and Brian Larcombe?"

Chief Executive Richard Segal told Reuters: "The strategic review has been completed and we are considering the conclusions of that. Our decision will be made sooner rather than later. This is a company that has always been in a hurry."

Chhabra estimated the market value of the overall company at around $10 billion, a figure backed up by other industry sources. That would make it the biggest London offering since Dimension Data <DDT.L> floated for around 6 billion pounds in July 2000.

Further evidence that PartyGaming aims to float was seen in its announcement on Thursday that its revenue had quadrupled in 2004 to $602 million.

"There's no need for a private company like this to reveal those numbers unless they're thinking of going for an IPO," said Chhabra.

The online gaming industry has boomed in the last year, helped by better broadband access and the convenience of playing at home.

"Many a high street retailer would be very envious of our like-for-like sales growth," said Segal. "We are talking about quadrupling 2004 over 2003 in terms of top-line growth."

Other companies exposed to the industry have also boomed.

Shares in Sportingbet <SBT.L> have nearly trebled in the last year to value the owner of the Paradise Poker site at 900 million pounds.

Other beneficiaries have included CryptoLogic <CRY.TO> <CRYP.L>, a software developer for Internet gaming which beat market forecasts on Wednesday with a 27 percent increase in first-quarter profit.

London is fast becoming the de facto listing centre for Internet gambling companies, partly because online gaming is strictly regulated in the United States but welcomed in Britain, even though most players are in the States.

Other possible listings include Cassava Enterprises, the owner of 888.com and one of the world's biggest Internet gambling groups, valued at around $1.6 billion

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Investec quits as adviser to PartyGaming’s $10bn listing
By Dominic Walsh link (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8209-1610404,00.html)

THE world’s biggest internet poker company is to press head with plans for a $10 billion (£5.4 billion) flotation on the London Stock Exchange despite the abrupt resignation of one of its City advisers.

PartyGaming, the Gibraltar-based group that launched the PartyPoker website in 1997, announced yesterday that it had completed a review of its strategic options but that it was no longer working with Investec Securities.

The Times understands that Investec had become uncomfortable due to issues including the questionable legality of internet poker in the US, PartyGaming’s biggest market, and the background in “adult entertainment” of one of the company’s founding shareholders.

David Currie, head of UK investment banking at Investec, said last night: “We were doing the strategic review and that has come to an end. Our role is now over and we have parted company.”

PartyGaming said it was “now considering the conclusions of the strategic review” in conjunction with Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein, its remaining adviser. It declined to comment further, although most observers predict that it will pursue an initial public offering (IPO) at the end of next month, or in September.

City sources expressed surprise that it was pressing ahead with an IPO. One source suggested that the same factors that had caused Investec to pull out were worrying DKW, claiming that the bank had also considered resigning a few weeks ago.

Yesterday PartyGaming announced the appointment of Michael Jackson, the chairman of Sage Group, the software firm, as non-executive chairman, while Brian Larcombe, the former chief executive of the private equity firm 3i, becomes non-executive deputy chairman.

Richard Segal, PartyGaming’s chief executive, said: “They are both guys with very substantial reputations and the fact that they are on board with this says something about PartyGaming.”

He said that there had been no falling out with Investec, adding: “The strategic review ended and their mandate finished. David Currie is a good guy and he and his team will be on my Christmas card list.”

PartyGaming, which would be catapulted into the FTSE 100 index, reported annual revenues last year of $602 million (£302 million) and earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation (ebitda) of $391 million. Analysts are predicting that ebitda this year will hit $600 million as the poker boom gathers pace.

Cassava Enterprises, owner of the 888.com gambling website, is expected to pursue an IPO in the second week of July or September, depending on market conditions.

The Times understands that Investec had become uncomfortable due to issues including the questionable legality of internet poker in the US, PartyGaming’s biggest market, and the background in “adult entertainment” of one of the company’s founding shareholders.

David Currie, head of UK investment banking at Investec, said last night: “We were doing the strategic review and that has come to an end. Our role is now over and we have parted company.”

PartyGaming said it was “now considering the conclusions of the strategic review” in conjunction with Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein, its remaining adviser. It declined to comment further, although most observers predict that it will pursue an initial public offering (IPO) at the end of next month, or in September.

City sources expressed surprise that it was pressing ahead with an IPO. One source suggested that the same factors that had caused Investec to pull out were worrying DKW, claiming that the bank had also considered resigning a few weeks ago.

Yesterday PartyGaming announced the appointment of Michael Jackson, the chairman of Sage Group, the software firm, as non-executive chairman, while Brian Larcombe, the former chief executive of the private equity firm 3i, becomes non-executive deputy chairman.

Richard Segal, PartyGaming’s chief executive, said: “They are both guys with very substantial reputations and the fact that they are on board with this says something about PartyGaming.”

He said that there had been no falling out with Investec, adding: “The strategic review ended and their mandate finished. David Currie is a good guy and he and his team will be on my Christmas card list.”

PartyGaming, which would be catapulted into the FTSE 100 index, reported annual revenues last year of $602 million (£302 million) and earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation (ebitda) of $391 million. Analysts are predicting that ebitda this year will hit $600 million as the poker boom gathers pace.

Cassava Enterprises, owner of the 888.com gambling website, is expected to pursue an IPO in the second week of July or September, depending on market conditions.

[lorinda]

Deleted, failed link.

Search archives for 4 years, posts by CMWings with the word "Jackson" in there.

It's not the best list of threads because he is biased, but it should all fall into place after a few of them.

Lori

[lorinda]

poker.com collapsing shares (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=185031&Forum=A ll_Forums&Words=%2Bhijack&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Ma in=185031&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=22&datera nge=1&newerval=4&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post185031)

The fake hijack (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=183836&Forum=A ll_Forums&Words=%2Bhijack&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Ma in=183678&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=22&datera nge=1&newerval=4&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=& bodyprev=#Post183836)

Lori

[Cubswin]

sigh... a thread with only granny mae, lorinda, MH and jek posting... those were the golden days. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

now i remember THE michael jackson... though vaguely still. i was only a wee little lurker back then /images/graemlins/smile.gif