AQs with big flop

[UOPokerPlayer]

A lot going on in this hand IMO. Villian hasn't really made any noise, but seemed to be loose pf, but a little more passive post-flop. PF I like to make that pot-sweetener raise; but I could be making a horrible mistake. I make the raise with the intention of everyone calling, just so I can put money in where it is most likely EV. Also, this makes the stacks smaller in comparison to the pot and a bet-raise can commit most stacks especially smaller stacks. I also take the lead in the hand, though I wouldn't bet the flop if i don't hit. The flop overbet was made where I wanted a call, but I'm not sure now if that was the right decision, especially because of the stack sizes when it gets heads up. All comments are greatly appreciated.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($11.85)
MP ($4.15)
CO ($33)
Button ($18.6)
SB ($45.94)
Hero ($49.9)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, UTG calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, SB calls $0.50.

Flop: ($3) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, UTG folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $47.15 (All-In), SB calls $37.19 (All-In).

Turn: ($97.34) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($97.34) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $97.34

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 9s Qd (two pair, queens and nines).
Hero has Qc Ac (one pair, queens).
Outcome: SB wins $93.38. Hero wins $3.96. </font>

[PoBoy321]

Post this in the SSNL forum

Fold after the SB's check/raise. It's doubtful that he's doing this with a 1 pair hand that you beat.

[UOPokerPlayer]

This is the wrong forum for this hand?

I can see calling, but with the stacks, I never thought about folding for one second. This could definitely be a leak. I'm 45% when the money went in and villain ran it down to his timer. Semi-bluffing bad here? I need more convincing of why folding is not really weak.

[beset7]

I think PoBoy thought he was in mid/high.

I'd raise more preflop. My standard is 4xBB+1-2bbs for each limper.

Dont overplay top pair top kicker. There is nothing wrong with dumping it or playing cautiously against resistance. It's not that big of a hand in deep stack NL.

You cite the stacks as a reason to call. Could you elaborate on that?

[UOPokerPlayer]

I have the nut flush draw as well as TPTK. Even if he has a set or two pair, aren't I getting the implied to draw out? I just don't see many NL25 players folding two pair or a set to anything. I call for 6 dollars and we each have about 40 behind,, so I think that's sufficient, but being out of position it's going to be difficult to see both cards.

On the PFR, you don't think it's ever good to put in a raise to create a bigger pot? It definitely bit me in the ass here, but I do this with small and middle pairs sometimes as well, just to sweeten it when I hit a set, but in retrospect this lowers my implied odds. I just think the average player chases in bigger pots more than in little pots.

I think overall pushing wasn't that bad, but I may have been to generous as to what hands call me, I'm 35% against a set, 45% against 2 pair. Calling is probably best, but I just feel that if I see just a queen calling here 25% of the time it's really +EV. Maybe i'm disrespecting these guys too much. Is folding everyone's line here?

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
I think PoBoy thought he was in mid/high.

I'd raise more preflop. My standard is 4xBB+1-2bbs for each limper.

Dont overplay top pair top kicker. There is nothing wrong with dumping it or playing cautiously against resistance. It's not that big of a hand in deep stack NL.

You cite the stacks as a reason to call. Could you elaborate on that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're missing the fact that Hero has the nut flush redraw if he is behind. Using their range of hands, let's say you're up right now rarely, say 10%.

Against a set you're not so good, but two pair you're actually in very good shape with. That said, the push isn't necessarily the best way to play it. A two pair hand will probably pay you off even if you hit your flush, so just smooth calling is acceptable.

[UOPokerPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Using their range of hands, let's say you're up right now rarely, say 10%.

Against a set you're not so good, but two pair you're actually in very good shape with. That said, the push isn't necessarily the best way to play it. A two pair hand will probably pay you off even if you hit your flush, so just smooth calling is acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really my thinking as I look back. I wonder if leading the flop is the best option anyways? I don't like check raising at all, so check calling is the option, and that makes it painfully obvious that I have a draw.

So I call his flop raise, turn blanks. Blocking bet? check and pray it gets checked back?

So I call his flop raise, and flush comes. What to do?

Also, your thoughts on the PFR? This is just an overall conceptual question, not this hand in particular, just wondering if anyone else agrees with this, or if I'm just a moron that's overthinking PP25nl.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you're missing the fact that Hero has the nut flush redraw if he is behind. Using their range of hands, let's say you're up right now rarely, say 10%.


[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are totally right. My eyes must have blanked out. I was procrastinating doing more accord and satisfaction hypotheticals for my Contracts exam tomorrow. Sorry about that; didn't see the suits.

[xorbie]

I wasn't even looking at PF. No, I don't like. Think about building the pot this way. You have a certain % of winning the pot right now. The more people in, the lower this is. So would you rather charge 5 people $0.5 to see a flop, or charge 2 people $1.5?

The second way, the pot is as big but you have way more equity in it.

Also, I generally just check without a pair in the BB with this many limpers.

[subzero]

Make it 1.50 to go preflop. You're getting 2:1 on your money to just call the flop and you're about a 4:1 dog with your 9 nut flush outs. You also have the other 2 queens and the other 3 aces. I think it's okay to call the flop raise and see how the turn develops.

[pho75]

If you think these percentages are reasonable
set - 35%
2P - 50%
Qx - 10%
bluff - 5%
then you are about 47% to win. I think your play is good as long as there is a chance that villian will fold a better hand.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
PF I like to make that pot-sweetener raise; but I could be making a horrible mistake. I make the raise with the intention of everyone calling, just so I can put money in where it is most likely EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, if you're not happy with a .25BB, then switch to $50 tables. The minraise is dumb. (and almost anytime someone does it, I assume they're an idiot... no offense intended)

A raise presumeably has several purposes:
(1) To increase the pot
(2) To narrow the field to increase the probability that your hand will hold up
(3) To narrow the field to hands that should call a raise, therefore making it more possible to put your opponent on a hand
(4) To take position
(5) To win the hand out-right
(6) to isolate an opponent

I would say, particularly in NL with a drawing hand, the 1st is the least important.

A minraise accomplishes NOTHING. If you're in the big blind with 7-10s, you should fold that hand to any real bet. But if some donk min-raises it, I'll call. Because when I flop 2 pair of some bizarre straight, I'll bust him. And if he loses, its all because he's foolish enough to minraise. I'm playing nightly and it happens, without fail, every night. Someone doesn't raise enough (or raise at all), lets people in cheaply with hands they would fold (particularly the blinds), then they lose their stack to the BB special.