With KK, how much do I reraise button's raise preflop, and why?

[rikz]

Villain is Tight Aggressive preflop, and generally more passive post flop.

I have enough of a read to think he would not reraise me with JJ or lower.

I don't know enough about him to rule out QQ, KK (unlikely since I have 2), AK, or the dreaded AA.

So my question is this. Once I'm raised, how much do I reraise and why?

Specifically, what's my plan if he pushes against my reraise?

And what's my plan if he calls my reraise then rags flop (as opposed to an A, a K, a Q, or TJQ on the flop, in which case my read + a push by villain would lead me to fold versus any but the K flop)?

I don't like calling at all, but does anybody just call to see if a K or an A flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($56.1)
MP2 ($44.55)
MP3 ($129.55)
CO ($134.53)
<font color="#C00000">Button Villain ($44.75)</font>
SB ($67.15)
BB ($20.2)
UTG ($10.6)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($139.05)</font>
UTG+2 ($51)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button Villain raises to $7</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to ... </font>

How much? And why?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I just call against a TAG.

[joewatch]

I agree. Call the reraise.

[tripdad]

it is important to know what your stats for the session were. it seems you were running hot, so i would assume you were raising quite frequently. even a TAG will re-raise somewhat light if he thinks you are LAG.

at any rate, i make it $18 to go, and call his all-in should he push(he can't call here). you have him covered 3-fold, and i am simply willing to lose that much if he has AA and we get it all-in before the flop.

ni han!

[Suntzu00000]

Tripdad is right, you need to pop this guy back. AA vs. KK is not that likely. Reraise to $18. Also, we know your read on this guy is TAG, but what is your table image. How long have you been playing with this guy? Have you been TAG yourself? Do you often raise with hands like AK,KQs,AQ,AJ,JJ,TT? You most likely do. If this guy is a solid player, and is observant, then he is probably reraising you in position with a hand that can beat big broadway cards. RERAISE.

[kongo_totte]

Call. If he is a TAG he is very likely folding QQ-JJ to a 3-raise. Basically, a 3-raise will allow him to make the percect play. QQ-JJ is folding (if he is a tag) and AA is pushing. I agree I loose my stack on a rag flop against A A, but you also want to maximize value if you are ahead.

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
at any rate, i make it $18 to go, and call his all-in should he push(he can't call here). you have him covered 3-fold, and i am simply willing to lose that much if he has AA and we get it all-in before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this line. Besides, I want to regain control of the hand. Let him call my reraise.

[bort411]

I also like just calling here. Reraising just defines your hand and makes it easy for villian to get away from anything but AA.

I'm calling then check raising a non-ace flop.

[sh3nyg]

I like the re-raise here to $18 here for a couple reasons. One, you have to establish control of the hand. Two, you have to get a better sense of what he has, right now we really don't have enough info. If he calls (he shouldn't), you know he doesn't have AA and you can play the flop accordingly. If he pushes, well, so be it. I'm certainly willing to call that move if necessary. If he folds, I'm ok with that too, I have no desire to have him hang around and catch an A.
If the flop comes rags he's probably pushing if he has JJ or QQ and folding with AK...so I would throw maybe $12-$15 out there and be happy either way (a fold or a push). If he just calls, it's foolish, unless he's holding AA which I've already decided preflop I'm ok with.

[bort411]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the re-raise here to $18 here for a couple reasons. One, you have to establish control of the hand. Two, you have to get a better sense of what he has, right now we really don't have enough info. If he calls (he shouldn't), you know he doesn't have AA and you can play the flop accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree. If I'm Villian I'm certainly calling his reraise holding AA. Why wouldn't he just call and wait for Hero to throw more money at him on the flop with an inferior hand? With the amount Villian has behind him, Hero isn't getting anywhere close to the right odds to spike his set, and Hero's 2nd raise pretty much guarantees he'll be getting it all in on the flop.

This line really seems to be the best way to get worse hands to fold by defining your own hand, and makes it too easy for aces to double up.

[Ghazban]

Against a thinking TAG, reraising here lets him get away from QQ-TT and lets him take all your money with AA. If you call, you make a lot more on a ragged flop against those hands. You still lose a fair amount to AA but that's going to happen no matter how you play it.

[swolfe]

i'm surprised at how many people are advocating putting in a 3rd raise here. you're heads up and out of position. if you reraise to $18, a good player would fold TT-QQ/AK and call to trap you with AA.

the better play is to call and check-push the flop. this will keep the other reraising hands in and paying you off, and has a (very slight) chance of pushing a timid player off AA.

think about FTOP before you just start hammering away. what other hands would you put in the 3rd raise with? if the answer is only AA, then you're giving away too much information by reraising.

[skinnyMan]

Flat call here is pretty terrible. If the villian has AA you are likely going to pay, so let's just get over that immmediately.

Villian has ~$45 in his stack. You need to raise him to get more of his stack into the pot and try to get him pot committed. Min-raise would be enough and not likely to get him to fold. Raise to $18 is OK but anything more will let the Villian off too easy. Smooth call lets in JJ, QQ too cheaply and will burn you if he hits a set.

If he comes over the top I think you call here unless you are certain he would only do this with rockets. I would have a tough time laying down Kings with these stack sizes.

My $.02

[rikz]

My stats for this session were about 20% V$PIP, 7% PFR, and I was aggressive post flop on the hands I played either betting or raising much more often than calling. Also, if he was very observant, he would have noticed that most of my raises were in late position which might have led him to believe that my UTG+1 open raise was stronger than my usual raising standards. He had the button, however, and his preflop raise percentage was about 8% over the 80+ hands I've got for him in PT. So his preflop re-raising standard *might* have possibly been lower than his usual re-raising standards given his position.

Also, even though no one mentioned it in their replies, does anyone open-limp with KK as first in with the plan to reraise a late position raise? I didn't even consider it for one second. I do that with AA sometimes, but I don't like doing it unless I'm extremely confident that a LAG behind me will raise in late position. This was not a LAG-y table. But it wasn't super tight either. So, does anybody avoid the decision to call/raise the $7 reraise by just open-limping with the intent of reraising somebody like the button so that he gets to make the tough preflop decision?

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, even though no one mentioned it in their replies, does anyone open-limp with KK as first in with the plan to reraise a late position raise? I didn't even consider it for one second. I do that with AA sometimes, but I don't like doing it unless I'm extremely confident that a LAG behind me will raise in late position.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen people limp with AA and KK. There's nothing wrong with playing a hand differently (it adds deception). But you better be ready/able to let it go if nobody raises and 7 people see the flop. Aces and Kings don't come around often, so I typically play them strong (even UTG).

[sh3nyg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the re-raise here to $18 here for a couple reasons. One, you have to establish control of the hand. Two, you have to get a better sense of what he has, right now we really don't have enough info. If he calls (he shouldn't), you know he doesn't have AA and you can play the flop accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree. If I'm Villian I'm certainly calling his reraise holding AA. Why wouldn't he just call and wait for Hero to throw more money at him on the flop with an inferior hand? With the amount Villian has behind him, Hero isn't getting anywhere close to the right odds to spike his set, and Hero's 2nd raise pretty much guarantees he'll be getting it all in on the flop.

This line really seems to be the best way to get worse hands to fold by defining your own hand, and makes it too easy for aces to double up.

[/ QUOTE ]

After looking this over again, I partially agree with your disagree. My line of "you know he doesn't have AA" is wrong for sure.
With the exception of a smaller pre-flop re-raise, I'd still play the hand the same.