folding trips

[george w of poker]

bb is solid, utg is pretty loose but i haven't seen him get out of line.

comments on anything are welcome.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($239.71)
MP ($110.1)
CO ($78.25)
Hero ($286.8)
SB ($313.55)
BB ($198)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, MP calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $2, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($10) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($10) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $9</font>, UTG calls $9, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $36</font>, SB folds, BB calls $27, UTG calls $27.

River: ($118) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG calls $201.71 (All-In), Hero folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: $319.71

[RiverDood]

Why check the flop?

With 5 players in, most of them very cheaply, anyone could have anything. You're probably way ahead at the flop, but if you keep giving free cards, it can't get better and it might get worse.

I'd bet 2/3 pot or pot and hope to isolate one guy who calls -- but won't improve. Letting four others try to improve on you free of charge feels needlessly risky.

[joewatch]

I don't think checking the flop is a bad move. However, my personal style would be to bet.

Interestingly, with this flop, being last to act is actually a disadvantage because

1. You are last to act, so any bet will be strongly considered as a bluff (you may have as little as 22 and it would be correct to bet if you are checked to.)

2. Being last to act opens you up to a check-raise from what may be a better hand, but could very well be a worse hand.

3. In this multiway/shorthanded pot, SB, BB are likely to go for check-raises if they have trips since these games tend to be more aggressive and there is greater likelihood of somebody betting.

On the turn, it is a BIG mistake to raise. You are either way ahead or way behind here. That means you don't win any more money by raising, but you do lose money when you are behind. Call the turn bet, and see what happens on the river.

On the river, you must fold to the all-in.

I think your biggest mistake was not folding 86o preflop on the button. The only flops you could be happy with are 886 and 457. When you flop trips, you are dominated by way too many hands. Instead of limping, making a big raise (8-10xbb) would have been a much better move. Then when you flop trips, there is a much greater likelihood that you have the best hand. They call that "Playing a Gus".

Thank you for posting this very interesting hand. Because I basically never play 86o from the button, it was fun to think about.

[george w of poker]

i usually bet the flop but on this drawless board i gave a card. betting is probably better.

[Ghazban]

Regarding the flop, I expect you'd bet this if it were checked to you even if you had absolutely nothing, right? Maybe you wouldn't, but most 2+2ers would take a stab at this pot last to act with nobody else betting. If that's your usual style, checking is horrible as it broadcasts the fact that you have at least an 8. After that, the turn was fine and the river fold was fine barring a great read.

[george w of poker]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, it is a BIG mistake to raise. You are either way ahead or way behind here. That means you don't win any more money by raising, but you do lose money when you are behind. Call the turn bet, and see what happens on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't think this is a way ahead or way behind situation. there are now two draws on the board that i need to charge and utg being loose may call the raise with just a jack. after they both call i'm planning on checking it down and when utg moves all in there is very little chance i'm ahead.


[ QUOTE ]
I think your biggest mistake was not folding 86o preflop on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't agree here.

[george w of poker]

[ QUOTE ]

Regarding the flop, I expect you'd bet this if it were checked to you even if you had absolutely nothing, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

not with 5-way action which is part of the reason i checked. if it had been less players and it was a stab situation i would have bet for sure.

[The_Bends]

A valid point is if you are going to play 86o and not bet when you hit trips what on earth are you in the hand for? Exclusively to draw to the straight?

I think this is a better play if you were calling a raise rather than flat calling a load of limpers. A raiser you have a chance to stack a good hand when you make a great but disguised one, against limpers your in all sorts of trouble whatever you flop.

[RiverDood]

Just to kick it around some more . . .

On the flop, you're in bad trouble if anyone has 33 or A8 (or K8, etc.) If you bet pot here, they'll most likely call and see if you want to hang yourself on the turn or river. Acting last, you may be able to take it to a showdown cheap, or get out cheap.

If someone has 9T, they'll probably fold to your flop bet. Ditto for the guy with 2 clubs. Ditto for the guy with JQ. And maybe most other draws. But all sorts of draws become plausible after the turn card, and then it's hard to nudge them out . . . slam them out . . . or dynamite them out. If too many draws stick around after the turn, the schooling phenomenon takes hold and then you're at serious risk of seeing some long-shot hit his card on the river and taking down the pot.

On the river, I originally read the all-in as 9T or A8. But now I'm thinking he might also have hijacked the pot with QJ. Do you think that's conceivable?? If so, doesn't that make for an even stronger argument for you to raise at the flop?