JTo on the button 6max

[btspider]

I think this one has several interesting streets.

MP is about 70/14 PF. I haven't had great folding equity postflop against him thus far. He hasn't been too tricky postflop, tho the sample has been small this session. The other player involved is typical too loose too passive.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

anyone fold?

Flop: (4 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, MP calls.

wait until turn situation? does my opponent bet most turn cards?

Turn: (5 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, MP calls.

scare card..

River: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Do I call a bet?
Do I bet if checked to? .. response to a check-raise?

[aK13]

Check behind if he checks. I don't know what I'd do if bet into...I'm tempted to say call, but I don't think we're good 1 in 8 times here...

[VBM]

hey spider,

my $.02, i play the flop &amp; turn exactly the same. personally, i like the wait-for-the-turn play for 2pair+ on safe turn cards.

if a free showdown is offered, i'd probably take it.

worse hands won't necessarily call (2x, Tx)
some better hands will call (QT, KT)
6x would try for a trap.

[DeathDonkey]

Easy river bet, I dunno what to do with a CR that's a read-based thing. If he bets I would call.

Why are you playing 1/2 you 5/10 monster?

-DeathDonkey

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this one has several interesting streets.

MP is about 70/14 PF. I haven't had great folding equity postflop against him thus far. He hasn't been too tricky postflop, tho the sample has been small this session. The other player involved is typical too loose too passive.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

anyone fold?

Flop: (4 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, MP calls.

wait until turn situation? does my opponent bet most turn cards?

Turn: (5 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, MP calls.

scare card..

River: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Do I call a bet?
Do I bet if checked to? .. response to a check-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[btspider]

there's a bonus to clear you bonus whoring pansies scared about losing your bonus whore accounts.

almost finished tho, then back to the 5/10 swampland, but i see the light ahead.

[Isura]

Preflop: I limp.

Flop: Raise. Your not getting bet into often enough, and your hand is not nearly strong enough to slowplay 3 handed. Plus raising helps to define your hand on the cheaper street.

Turn: Standard.

River: Bet this. Easy fold to a raise.

Edit: I call a river bet too.

[SteveL91]

I think I'd be calling a bet or betting if checked to. If he's picking now to get tricky, then so be it.

Also, I'd probably raise pre-flop if I'm going to play. In general, I hate limping unless there's already been two or more limpers. I'm not quite as averse to doing so on the button, but any other position and it's usually a raise or fold situation for me.

[cold_cash]

Hey Spidey.

I don't hate the limp necessarily, (because you're on the button; if you were in the cut-off seat it would probably be a different story), but I also wouldn't hate raising.

I also think the river needs to be bet or called.

If this guy plays 70% of his hands I'm not checking behind fearing he has an Ace; also, if he keeps his aggression up post-flop there's a good chance he would have bet the flop with middle pair, or check-raised you on the turn with an Ace.

If he's this type of player (aggressive), I would bet/call the river. Many worse hands will call, and probably a few even worser ones will check-raise. If you're confident in your "non-tricky" read, I think I could find a fold though. It's tough to tell without knowing how aggressive he is.

[SCfuji]

[ QUOTE ]
MP is about 70/14 PF

[/ QUOTE ]

i will find a raise here 80% of the time preflop

[ QUOTE ]
wait until turn situation? does my opponent bet most turn cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

no i like the raise here.

[ QUOTE ]
scare card..

[/ QUOTE ]

more scary for the villain, i promise.

[ QUOTE ]
Do I call a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[ QUOTE ]
Do I bet if checked to?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[ QUOTE ]
response to a check-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

and [ QUOTE ]
He hasn't been too tricky postflop, tho the sample has been small this session

[/ QUOTE ]

makes me torn, but i am a big payoff station so i usually call down.

[Bodhi]

getting 8-1, I would call a bet on the end. Also, with the range of MP's holdings being so wide, I would bet this river for value.

Being check-raised would be very unpleasant, and my response could depend a lot on what the villain had already seen me do during the session.

[milesdyson]

I am pretty much definitely raising this preflop. I want to play heads up (yes, with JTo) against the 70/14 dude who basically limped in the cutoff.

SB is passive, so it is likely he checks the turn. I can imagine him checking any non top pair hand unless he's improved, but I think he will bet any top pair hand on the turn. You beat most of the top pair hands he could have, and I think him checking the turn is too likely, so I like raising the flop.

Turn is a must bet. It would suck if he check raised you there, and it would be a fold, imo.

River is also a bet if he checks to you, but it is pretty close. He probably would have raised a T on the flop or an A on the turn, so you're basically betting and hoping he has called you down with a 2 or a low pocket pair (which is decently likely).

If he check raises, I don't see how it can be a bluff, so I'd fold. As you said, he hasn't been tricky postflop thus far.

[cmwck]

Whether to raise or call the flop depends on the aggressiveness of SB. Since he is typical passive, I'd probably raise the flop to extract value while I can.

The river is interesting ; I can't really think of many hands he would bet that we beat. He could have a 6, an ace, maybe JJ. Or he could be betting 77-99 trying to scare you with the board pairing. Is he getting tricky with a worse hand more than 10% of the time? Your read would suggest no, so I would fold the river.

If he checked, he would have to have pretty awful river calling standards for me to bet.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Spidey.

I don't hate the limp necessarily, (because you're on the button; if you were in the cut-off seat it would probably be a different story), but I also wouldn't hate raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think its close. my "don't have great folding equity against him" was my justification for calling since I don't have much showdown value if I take a free street somewhere UI.

[ QUOTE ]
If this guy plays 70% of his hands I'm not checking behind fearing he has an Ace

[/ QUOTE ]

if the river wasn't the 6, its an easy value bet. i thought the river 6 and turn Ace made for a situation where 2x may be less likely to call. 6x may check-raise, etc.. which is why I don't like betting unless I feel &lt;semi&gt; confident in my response to a check-raise. Auto-paying off the wrong opponent kills the value in the bet. Auto-folding could be a huge mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
if he keeps his aggression up post-flop there's a good chance he would have bet the flop with middle pair, or check-raised you on the turn with an Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's semi passive postflop. i didn't have a solid read on his aggro'ness postflop, but it hadn't stood out as something to be wary of.

[DMBFan23]

value bizzle this shizzle, for rizzle.

I reply to any questions of "what hands call" with

[ QUOTE ]
MP is about 70/14 PF. I haven't had great folding equity postflop against him thus far

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

EDIT: absolutely call if he bets

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP is about 70/14 PF

[/ QUOTE ]

i will find a raise here 80% of the time preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

i had poor folding equity, so i limped. its close.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wait until turn situation? does my opponent bet most turn cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

no i like the raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

easy flop raise me thinks. my OP made it sound closer than it was b/c I wanted people to think about it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
scare card..

[/ QUOTE ]

more scary for the villain, i promise.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, gotta bet turn, but I think it has an effect on the river to some extent.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do I call a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[/ QUOTE ]

of course! i should drag this 1 in 9 times.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do I bet if checked to?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[ QUOTE ]
response to a check-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

and [ QUOTE ]
He hasn't been too tricky postflop, tho the sample has been small this session

[/ QUOTE ]

makes me torn, but i am a big payoff station so i usually call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the toughest choice of the hand. i think i might fold if this was my last hand at the table and i might call if i wanted a better read at the beginning of a long session.

results later.

[Megenoita]

I think this is a fairly easy hand to play. Limping PF is normal, raising is okay depending on the game. I limp here.

Raising the flop is far superior to waiting. Waiting is bad. All this talk these days on the forum about waiting for the turn...much of it is misguided. There are too many overcards that can come on the turn that would make you no longer like your hand, so you have to raise for value now. You don't gain significant equity if a "blank" comes on the turn. Plus, raising the flop gains information, which is what I like most about it in many situations.

Of course bet the turn, folding to a raise (unless a crazy player...).

Bet the river if checked to, call if bet into.

I think what I just said is Isura's line, but I also think it's standard.

M

[krishanleong]

Raise preflop.

Flop is fine.

Turn is good.

Call 1 on the river. Check behind if checked to.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

worse hands won't necessarily call (2x, Tx)
some better hands will call (QT, KT)


[/ QUOTE ]

Board paired.

Krishan

[Megenoita]

I think betting if checked to is really necessary. 2x, Tx, 33, 44, 55, 77, 88, 99 call, and you can easily fold to a raise. This is 1/2. 2x and Tx WONT fold, ever, and all the above pocket pairs are passive-possible.

Congratulations on getting married /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

M

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I think betting if checked to is really necessary. 2x, Tx, 33, 44, 55, 77, 88, 99 call, and you can easily fold to a raise. This is 1/2. 2x and Tx WONT fold, ever, and all the above pocket pairs are passive-possible.

Congratulations on getting married /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

M

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Here is the thing, I put villian on a J, 6, 2 or pocket pair. Assuming he will call with all hands, check-raise with a 6. You lose 2 on a 6, win 1 on a 2 or pp, split with all Jacks. It's an even bet.

Now consider that he may fold some weak pp or a 2 and he might cr a jack now that his kicker is counterfeit I think edges the river action to a check.

Now maybe noone will ever cr here with just a J. But people go wild on paired boards and I don't think you can rule it out. I check the river.

Krishan

[Megenoita]

I don't see why you think it's an even bet. Consider that some of the time top pair will have raised already, and some of the time a 6 will bet into you on the river. The frequency of a 6 is lessened now that we see 2 of them, and we now lose to no J. No piece folds on a paired board with little action, so 2x and any pocket pair pay us off. And when we bet and get raised, we fold, so we don't lose 2 bets against a 6, but only 1. Of course this discussion depends on the type of player, but against most players, this is a serious value bet.

M

[DMBFan23]

why can't we only lose 1 on a river c/r?

also this is 1/2 6max we might be giving out opponent way too much credit for being able to fold a worse hand, or checkraise a better one. him checkraising a T x% of the time would lean me towards check.

[Greg J]

I like a preflop raise here. I like the flop and turns. Since it's HU on the river I bet and call a CR.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why you think it's an even bet. Consider that some of the time top pair will have raised already, and some of the time a 6 will bet into you on the river. The frequency of a 6 is lessened now that we see 2 of them, and we now lose to no J. No piece folds on a paired board with little action, so 2x and any pocket pair pay us off. And when we bet and get raised, we fold, so we don't lose 2 bets against a 6, but only 1. Of course this discussion depends on the type of player, but against most players, this is a serious value bet.

M

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I said earlier.

Now maybe noone will ever cr here with just a J. But people go wild on paired boards and I don't think you can rule it out. I check the river.

Krishan

[Megenoita]

Yeah, I definitely don't understand what you are saying. Even if you had to call a c/r, it's still a value bet because you are ahead more often than not IMO. Especially in a 1/2 6 max game.

M

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I definitely don't understand what you are saying. Even if you had to call a c/r, it's still a value bet because you are ahead more often than not IMO. Especially in a 1/2 6 max game.

M

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me %s for each hand.
a Jack
a pp
a 6
a 2

Krishan

[Megenoita]

pp/2/unexplainable moron who will call down with K high = 55%
6 = 10%
J = 35%

M

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
pp/2/unexplainable moron who will call down with K high = 55%
6 = 10%
J = 35%

M

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not being picky (Well maybe a little). But you need to split the moron, vrs a 2 into 2 percentages.

Krishan

[MrWookie47]

I'm not trying to be too picky either, but just for clarity, the T is the card of interest, not the J, no?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to be too picky either, but just for clarity, the T is the card of interest, not the J, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, pretend everything that we say refers to the T, not the J. Good catch. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Krishan

[KaiShin]

Preflop call is good. So is the flop and turn.

River I would bet if checked to. Call a lead bet by MP, fold to a check/raise.

[chris_a]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: Raise. Your not getting bet into often enough, and your hand is not nearly strong enough to slowplay 3 handed. Plus raising helps to define your hand on the cheaper street.

[/ QUOTE ]

a) Calling on the flop with the intention of raising on the turn is *not* a slowplay. It is actually a hand protection line.

b) Defining your hand is a terrible reason to raise. Why would you *want* to define your hand? I can see raising for the reasons of value or protection (or even, more rarely, information) but not to define your hand? I'm curious whether you meant something else.

[gvibes]

I would raise preflop, but then again, my pfr is way too high (pushing 18), particularly in comparison to my VPIP (like, &lt;23).

[VBM]

o rite...spider splits tens up w/ A kicker vs KT or QT etc...

so, even more then, i check behind if checked to. an A will either bet or check/raise so if he tries a check-raise better to just get the free showdown. same for 6x...

[btspider]

good discussion on the river. PF, i could be convinced to raise.. i'll try it next time. i often do, but against this opponent and non-tight blinds, i chose against.

=====================
=====================

RESULTS:

Villian bet the river, I called and he tables T8o. Splitsville.

=====================
=====================

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop is far superior to waiting. Waiting is bad. All this talk these days on the forum about waiting for the turn...much of it is misguided. There are too many overcards that can come on the turn that would make you no longer like your hand, so you have to raise for value now.



[/ QUOTE ]


Isn't that the whole point of waiting until the turn? With a vulnerable hand that will often be ruined by the turn card, and which you cannot protect, you should pass up a +EV play on the flop for an even bigger +EV play on the turn.

However, we still should raise the flop in the original hand because there's no guarantee that the passive bettor will bet again on the turn. Also, as you said, a good card on the turn doesn't increase our equity as much as we would like, since our equity on the flop is still relatively big, since only 3 overcards can come, and there are no straight or flush possibilities.

[SCfuji]

i dont mind the poor folding equity. you arent going to be that huge of a dog against donkeys even with jack high.

[ QUOTE ]
i think the toughest choice of the hand. i think i might fold if this was my last hand at the table and i might call if i wanted a better read at the beginning of a long session.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree - except your reasoning is interesting. shouldnt it be the same regardless? i mean you might run into this dude again right?

[SCfuji]

either way its just gambling. gamble on the flop or on the turn. forgive me for sounding superficial.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
either way its just gambling. gamble on the flop or on the turn. forgive me for sounding superficial.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying this about the OP's situation or about all flop situations where you have top pair and there is a bet and some callers in front of you?

[SCfuji]

when im most likely ahead and i need to decide what street to jam the pot.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont mind the poor folding equity. you arent going to be that huge of a dog against donkeys even with jack high.

[ QUOTE ]
i think the toughest choice of the hand. i think i might fold if this was my last hand at the table and i might call if i wanted a better read at the beginning of a long session.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree - except your reasoning is interesting. shouldnt it be the same regardless? i mean you might run into this dude again right?

[/ QUOTE ]

nah, he's probably more likely to lose his money before i see him again (not buddy worthy). also, he might change his style if he's stuck after a few days, etc.. so the read may only be good for that session and he'll almost certainly forget me by the next time so if i'm trying to keep him from being tricky, it won't last into the next meeting.