Difficult decisions on all streets with Kings.

[durron597]

This may be one of the most difficult hands I've ever played... at least I think it is. Comments appreciated on every street.

No-limit Texas Hold'em $5+$.50 (real money), hand #895,161,836
San Diego Single Table Tournament, 11 May 2005 08:43 PM


Seat 1: Button ($1,000 in chips)
Seat 2: SB ($1,460 in chips)
Seat 3: BB (Villian) ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG ($1,480 in chips)
Seat 5: UTG+1 ($1,110 in chips)
Seat 6: MP1 ($2,060 in chips)
Seat 7: MP2 ($3,460 in chips)
Seat 8: CO-1 ($1,460 in chips)
Seat 10: CO (Hero) [K/images/graemlins/club.gif,K/images/graemlins/heart.gif] ($1,470 in chips)


ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($10), Villian posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP[/b]
3 folds, MP2 calls $20, 1 fold, Hero bets $90, 2 folds, Villian bets $140, 1 fold, Hero calls $70.

FLOP [board cards Q/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
Villian bets $70, Hero calls $70.

TURN [board cards Q/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,9/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Villian checks, Hero bets $200, Villian bets $400, Hero calls $200.

RIVER [board cards Q/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/heart.gif,Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,9/images/graemlins/heart.gif,6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Villian bets $325, Hero calls $325.

[TheUsher]

Why not re-raise PF? That would make things much easier for you. On that board and with the shallow stacks, you really can't do much to find out if he has you beat. I think your mistake here is not raising the small flop bet to find out what you need to know there. Calling down, and especially betting the turn after he checked is pretty bad. When he fires out that river bet, if I didn't muck the KK before, I'd wish I would have. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Pretty ugly board for your kings.

Edit: Just noticed this was a 5. I'm pushing PF there to their re-raise. No doubt. I haven't played those games, or even at Pokerstars, but I'd imagine I'd get lots of trash to call me to make it worth my while, especially after he has shown strength PF.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not re-raise PF? That would make things much easier for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to get full value out of his smaller pairs. Also I want to be able to keep some chips if I think he sucks out on me.

[ QUOTE ]
On that board and with the shallow stacks, you really can't do much to find out if he has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

These stacks aren't shallow. This is level 1.

[ QUOTE ]
I think your mistake here is not raising the small flop bet to find out what you need to know there.

[/ QUOTE ]

What will I learn by raising that I won't find out on the turn? If he has AK he folds, if he has AQ/KQ/AJ/Pair...KT? he calls my flop raise, so I learn nothing.

[ QUOTE ]

Calling down, and especially betting the turn after he checked is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[ QUOTE ]
When he fires out that river bet, if I didn't muck the KK before, I'd wish I would have. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Pretty ugly board for your kings.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're so certain I'm beaten on the river... when do you muck this hand, to the turn raise? Or do you check behind on the turn? How often am I behind on the turn?

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: Just noticed this was a 5. I'm pushing PF there to their re-raise. No doubt. I haven't played those games, or even at Pokerstars, but I'd imagine I'd get lots of trash to call me to make it worth my while, especially after he has shown strength PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've actually found lots of players are folding to the early massive overbets. I get more equity slowplaying it a little, and the chance to fold when an A flops if I decide I'm beat. And if I'm up against AQ or whatever it's nice to be able to fold on the flop instead of complaining that I lost a 70-30 when I can still get a lot of players to bet with two overs.

[lorinda]

I want to get full value out of his smaller pairs. Also I want to be able to keep some chips if I think he sucks out on me.

Just shovel it in preflop.

In a $5 game (I confess I've never played Pokerroom, but I've played lots of $5 games) you will get called often enough anyway that extracting a little extra value just isn't worth the torture.

You'll be amazed what you can get away with in those games.

Lori

[lorinda]

After the flop, my plan is to get in a 'comfortable' amount of chips but see a showdown if at all possible.

With that in mind, I probably check the turn.

Edit: Actually the turn bet might be the best way to get a cheap showdown on average.
I wouldn't bet the river if he calls the turn then checks the river.

Lori

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to get full value out of his smaller pairs. Also I want to be able to keep some chips if I think he sucks out on me.

Just shovel it in preflop.

In a $5 game (I confess I've never played Pokerroom, but I've played lots of $5 games) you will get called often enough anyway that extracting a little extra value just isn't worth the torture.

You'll be amazed what you can get away with in those games.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right in the sense that the extra value isn't worth the torture, but what about the times when I save myself from busting by slowing it down? It's still early, there's plenty of play here. Calling this river, if behind, leaves me with 500 chips, which at this level is still 25 BB. I only need to win one race to get back a reasonable shot at ITM.

[lorinda]

After the flop, a combination of some betting and not busting is all good, but preflop I'm happy to shovel it in and if A3 busts me, I set up a new game. The other 2/3rds of the time I have a great stack.
Also, they'll often call with 77 or something preflop which is a monster position for you.

Lori

[durron597]

Results:

SHOWDOWN
Villian shows [ Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif,Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Hero shows [ K/images/graemlins/club.gif,K/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Villian wins $1,940.

I took my $500 chips and went on to take third. Push preflop? While certainly not wrong, I think I like this line better... even if I didn't make the money I still don't lose all my chips here if I play this faster, since I doubt a $5 player would ever fold QQ preflop.

[ekky]

ekky thinks this is like saying "I am glad I didn't push all in pre flop with KK because he said he would call with A2.. and what do you know! an Ace came on the flop, therefore I saved money!"

In an attempt to maximise your equity by keeping it cheap enough for him to mug you on the flop, you have actually minimised your equity.

If I am lucky enough to get KK called all in pre flop every time by QQ, I consider that maximising equity on the grandest scale.

Let the Q come once so often, for it is true that the Q comes a lot less then it doesn't

[durron597]

How often do you avoid getting QQ allin on the flop on an xxx board?

The only equity lost by not getting KK allin PF against QQ is the times when an A or a K flops. And the fact that he had QQ this time is besides the point.... he could have very easly played AA this way too.

[deathpotato]

I really think you need to reraise preflop and try to get all-in. Looking at the hand afterward and saying "I didn't bust, this was the better way to play it" is missing the point and being a little bit results-oriented. Instead of getting all your money in as a huge favourite preflop, you got most of your t1000 contribution in while drawing dead, and it was pretty much unavoidable once you got to the flop.

Another good reason to get all-in preflop is that many dominated hands will call you that might fold in the face of postflop aggression if they miss (AK-Awhatever, TT on down may fold if they whiff).

Seeing a flop to prevent being sucked out on for all your chips may seem to make sense, but you need to force your opponent to draw out on you once he is all-in or pot committed. Calling his reraise gives him a free look at the flop with his AT or whatever. He'll often fold if he misses, and he'll call when he hits, so postflop you will usually either win the preflop pot or lose a large pot fueled by your betting, while occasionally winning when he hangs onto pairs or you spike a set. Get your money in preflop, before he can see whether he has hit, and the extra chips you will win will more than make up for the ~1/3 of the time he draws out on you.

ps sorry if this is poorly worded, I've been up all night.

edit: just because he had QQ this time doesn't mean a $5+.5 opponent will only do this with QQ. There are plenty of weaker hands from which you will see this move.

[ekky]

he could also just have easily have had AK or 10/10 or JJ or AJ etc etc

the point being made, is that in an attempt to maximise equity by letting people see cheap flops with inferior cards, he is costing himself equity by not getting his money in vs a range of vastly inferior cards.

I think they call it weak-tight.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to get full value out of his smaller pairs. Also I want to be able to keep some chips if I think he sucks out on me.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
How often do you avoid getting QQ allin on the flop on an xxx board?

The only equity lost by not getting KK allin PF against QQ is the times when an A or a K flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see why these are contradictory? You say that if no A or K flops (when he has QQ), he'll push in anyway. But somehow you feel you can save money if your opponent flops a set?

By not pushing in you're getting MINIMUM value from the small pairs. If you see the flop cheap, you bet out and he folds. Except when he flops a set and busts you. Which costs a lot less than when he folds to a preflop raise.

Getting your money in as a big favorite is how you get the max from them. Not giving them a cheap shot to bust you.

[Tilt]

I think this line is a bit strange. I'm not entirely opposed to playing less than a kamikaze strategy in the 5's with KK when you are clearly (based on my direct experience!) capable of outplaying these guys with even a small stack. That being said, I think you should reraise preflop. It need not be all in...I would have raised to ~400 here. I would have called his all-in if he pushed. I would have pushed an aceless flop of any kind. I would probably have laid down like a lamb on a flop with an ace.

Now, if I had played it like you did, and that flop came....well, I would have raised the flop to 250, and then laid down after that. If you want to be careful and preserve chips in a situation where you feel you can just outplay later on, then preserve more chips. Certainly his min-raise on the turn tell you that he likes the paired board alot.

[Bluff Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have called his all-in if he pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope so!

[go fish]

I play mostly 5.50s, and I kind of dread seeing KK, especially early. It is a big relief for me when I manage to get them all-in pre-flop. If I play with them, I make all the moves and do the tricks and end up either outplaying myself, losing to someone who lucks out with A3 or JT or something, or winning a pretty small pot. I like the advice for reraising pre-flop, probably all-in. You'll end up trapping yourself unless the cards come just right, or people won't play with you at all.

[Degen]

PUSH pre flop dude, there is no such thing as 'maximum value considerations' at a $5 tourney...Ax will call you and so will most people holding underpairs.

Andre

[adanthar]

Having played this hand the way you did, check behind on the turn and call any bet on the river. Having bet, folding to the CR is probably OK because a typical $5 monkey can't be bluffing enough to make that call work.

But yeah, just push PF.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Having played this hand the way you did, check behind on the turn and call any bet on the river. Having bet, folding to the CR is probably OK because a typical $5 monkey can't be bluffing enough to make that call work.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line. And yes, I should at least reraise PF... I don't want TT to be able to fold.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Having played this hand the way you did, check behind on the turn and call any bet on the river. Having bet, folding to the CR is probably OK because a typical $5 monkey can't be bluffing enough to make that call work.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line. And yes, I should at least reraise PF... I don't want TT to be able to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're plotting too much. There should be virtually no fancy play early in a 5.50 sng. You want him to fold his TT, 77, 55, 73o whatever PF to your reraise. You want to extract NOTHING without the nuts and you don't ever have the nuts PF.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
You're plotting too much. There should be virtually no fancy play early in a 5.50 sng. You want him to fold his TT, 77, 55, 73o whatever PF to your reraise. You want to extract NOTHING without the nuts and you don't ever have the nuts PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif Are you ever not shortstacked on the bubble/ITM? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're plotting too much. There should be virtually no fancy play early in a 5.50 sng. You want him to fold his TT, 77, 55, 73o whatever PF to your reraise. You want to extract NOTHING without the nuts and you don't ever have the nuts PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif Are you ever not shortstacked on the bubble/ITM? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

All the time. Read my reply again.

[PrayingMantis]

Just came to see how things are doing at the old STT forum.

[ QUOTE ]
You want him to fold his TT, 77, 55, 73o whatever PF to your reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW, things are getting BIZARRE...


To durron: reraising all-in PF is superior to calling. The fact that you've "saved" yourself some chips post-flop is very results-oriented, since there is a good chance you actually save villain the same amount, the way you played it.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
All the time. Read my reply again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you get AA/KK/QQ/AK a whole lot more often than I do then....

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
There should be virtually no fancy play <font color="red"> early </font> in a 5.50 sng. You want him to fold his TT, 77, 55, 73o whatever PF to your reraise. You want to extract NOTHING without the nuts and you don't ever have the nuts PF.

[/ QUOTE ]


Your hand is a level 1 hand which is why I replied the way I did. I stand by my reply, you shouldn't be playing a lot of "poker" at this point in an SnG.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you get AA/KK/QQ/AK a whole lot more often than I do then....

[/ QUOTE ]

How you play these hands early is up to you, but most will recommend a push. I often get to the bubble without ever playing a hand except in the blinds. Folding AJo, small pairs and even AQo to a reraise is not uncommon for me. Once to level 5+ the game changes considerably. It is push fold time or if I have a stack, stealing with 4x/5x BB bets.

Once ITM and 3 handed its still push fold time unless I'm the large stack, then I vary my play. HU is a different matter altogether.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
How you play these hands early is up to you, but most will recommend a push. I often get to the bubble without ever playing a hand except in the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I was saying you probably get to the bubble shortstacked.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why I was saying you probably get to the bubble shortstacked.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, misread your post. I am fairly mixed on stack size when I get to the bubble. A short stack for me if I have not gotten a premium hand is in the 1100-1200 range (starting stack 1500). To me that isn't too bad with 3-4 other players between 2000-6000 in chips. Patience pays off more often than not and I rarely go ITM short stacked.
As often as that happens I have a healthy stack as well. I prefer to have a healthy stack but have learned not to gamble early with marginal hands because it tends to work itself out during bubble play.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's why I was saying you probably get to the bubble shortstacked.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, misread your post. I am fairly mixed on stack size when I get to the bubble. A short stack for me if I have not gotten a premium hand is in the 1100-1200 range (starting stack 1500). To me that isn't too bad with 3-4 other players between 2000-6000 in chips. Patience pays off more often than not and I rarely go ITM short stacked.
As often as that happens I have a healthy stack as well. I prefer to have a healthy stack but have learned not to gamble early with marginal hands because it tends to work itself out during bubble play.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the time you get to the bubble, though, it's tough to steal enough blinds to make ITM without having to win at least one showdown PF. What are your win distributions like?

[GtrHtr]

Statistically, I have nothing to offer as I single table and have only figured this all out 10 days ago. My BR has doubled in that time however and virtually every one of the SnG's I've played has played out almost exactly the same. Positive variance? Perhaps, but I'm sticking with it.

[Big Limpin']

heres an easy read for ya.
-villain reraises from the blinds = BIG hand
-villain leads with pathetic underbet on flop = airball/monster
-villain checkraises after his tiny flop bet = yer overpair is toast

you needent even call that checkraise. you have 2 outs.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
heres an easy read for ya.
-villain reraises from the blinds = BIG hand
-villain leads with pathetic underbet on flop = airball/monster
-villain checkraises after his tiny flop bet = yer overpair is toast

you needent even call that checkraise. you have 2 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, you're right. I just really didn't want to lay down my Kings on that turn.