33 blind defense

[VBM]

play along if you please. villain is a bit loose, a bit aggressive.

give a try to:
villain's hand range
your action
plan for subsequent streets.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero ...?

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]
play along if you please. villain is a bit loose, a bit aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be any pair, any two broadway, any A, and maybe even any K. That's a lot of hands. Will he continue to call down after the flop?

It's the looseness that bothers me there. Is there a chance that this guy will drop if you show aggression now and lead out after the flop? If so I 3 bet.

[Malachii]

I don't like 3 betting. I call and checkraise a favorable flop (a favorable flop being a 3, no ace, one or less face cards.)

[UncleSalty]

With a villain who is a bit loose and a bit aggressive, (but not maniacally so) I will usually put him on a fairly wide range of stealing hands here, but generally a couple of Broadways.

I would 3-bet here, partly for value because I assume my pair is ahead a lot of the time, but also to help define villain's hand before it gets too expensive.

Assuming he just calls the 3-bet I will lead almost any flop that doesn't have a broadway card in it, and check/fold if the board comes coordinated or has several high cards. (This line of course assumes I miss my set.)

If he caps my 3-bet PF I am playing for set value only, and will check/fold UI on the flop.

[aK13]

Against any nonpair hand, you're about 50% to win this. I'd call here, and pull a check/raise on the flop if its not too bad (i.e. AKQ or something). If he 3bets, I'll give him credit for a better hand and fold. Otherwise, I'll try to push him around.

[VBM]

<font color="green">wow, excellent analysis guys.

here were my thoughts, very similar to some of your responses.

i 3-bet.

if he caps, i expect a premium pair or AK and fold any non-3 flop.
if he calls, i figure it's more times than not Ax. pocket pairs are also possible.</font>

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

<font color="green">I bet here b/c:

1. I may be ahead
2. If I check, he bets just about any hand.

I expect any J or any K to play back at me. It is in the back of my mind that trickier players may wait to raise the turn.</font>

Turn: (4.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

<font color="green"> One J left in the deck, doubt he's got it. If he's got a K, for sure he's playing back here. I wouldn't be surprised if some pocket pairs here get aggressive.</font>

River: (6.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

<font color="green">This card sucks. if he doesn't have a Q, my guess is its unlikely he bluff-raises. He likely will pay off an A hoping to chop AT or something I have that may've gotten counterfeited.</font>

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Hero has 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (full house, jacks full of threes).
CO has A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.25 BB.

<font color="green">Thoughts? feedback? all welcome. /images/graemlins/smile.gif</font>

[UncleSalty]

I think this is the correct way to play in this situation. In HU situations where I have a made pair, I usually find it correct to:

a) be the aggressor
b) assume my hand is good unless told otherwise by my opponent.

Nice hand!

[cockandbull]

My blind defense isnt great...however i would call preflop...c/r this flop and lead this turn.

[DMBFan23]

preflop, I rate my options as call, fold, raise.

raising doesn't make the hand any easier to play, IMO, because you have little folding power versus a loose aggressive, and if you get raised on the flop bet it can't be good. and you aren't pushing much value, if any. I much prefer calling and check-raising favorable flops if I decide to defend.

[VBM]

long time, kevin &amp; harry/C&amp;B. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

truthfully i hadn't thought through this line at the time. here's what i figure.

here were my preferences pre-flop; fold, raise, call. I didn't actually want to play this hand, but i'm so uncomfortable in blind defense/sh play (going into CHUMP no less) that i forced myself to play in this marginal situation.

given that i was going to play, like a former guy said, i figure at least i can define if i'm likely vs. a premium pair for cheap. when you say you don't think it will make the hand easier to play, is that b/c:
1. you think a LAG will cap light in HU play?
2. you think a LAG might get tricky and call a 3-bet instead of capping to try and drill me worse post-flop?

i don't prefer C/R this flop &amp; leading the turn b/c:

a. if i lead out, i give him 7.5:1 to see the next card. if he raises me on this flop, after i played back at him PF, i don't feel badly about folding.
or
b. if i C/R, i'm putting him in a situation where he's getting 9.5:1 to see the next card.

true, he may fold to my C/R, but on the flop, when bets are cheap, most i've run into in $1/2 tend to peel.

note, i would definitely C/R this flop, lead the turn if i were holding a hand like KTs, where i don't mind so much if he sees the next card.

is this flawed thinking?

[Shillx]

One J left in the deck, doubt he's got it. If he's got a K, for sure he's playing back here. I wouldn't be surprised if some pocket pairs here get aggressive.

You have to be careful playing against good players since they should just call on the turn and then raise the river. Bad players will raise the turn everytime with a king so that isn't much of a concern. Also it might be correct to raise the turn with a king if it is good player v. good player and you know that he expects you to just call the turn with that hand. Damn this game is crazy.

[RockPile]

I dont understand #2

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="green">I bet here b/c:

1. I may be ahead
2. If I check, he bets just about any hand.

</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

If he bets any hand you check why wouldnt you check raise this???

[VBM]

great insight brad!

as a corallary, do you think a good player might raise a non-K? probably if the thought he had a better than 2/5.5 chance of folding me, huh?

[VBM]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand #2

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="green">I bet here b/c:

1. I may be ahead
2. If I check, he bets just about any hand.

</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

If he bets any hand you check why wouldnt you check raise this???

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c there are lots of turn cards i potentially don't want to commit him to seeing. and he has good odds to do it once he's check-raised &amp; there are more bets in the pot.

[RockPile]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand #2

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="green">I bet here b/c:

1. I may be ahead
2. If I check, he bets just about any hand.

</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

If he bets any hand you check why wouldnt you check raise this???

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c there are lots of turn cards i potentially don't want to commit him to seeing. and he has good odds to do it once he's check-raised &amp; there are more bets in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you checkraise him he is going from 7:1 to 3.5:1 so you would be making his odds worse. Calling $1 is harder than calling .50

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
great insight brad!

as a corallary, do you think a good player might raise a non-K? probably if the thought he had a better than 2/5.5 chance of folding me, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. A good player will raise a non-nut boat here for value (so something like 88). They should also adjust their bluffing strategy to how they would play if they held a king in this spot. So against a good player, they would never bluff the turn unless they also value raised the turn. Against a default player, bluff raising on this board probably will not work since a lot of the hands that he figures to have (A-high or a boat) will call it down everytime.

Brad

[VBM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand #2

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="green">I bet here b/c:

1. I may be ahead
2. If I check, he bets just about any hand.

</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

If he bets any hand you check why wouldnt you check raise this???

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c there are lots of turn cards i potentially don't want to commit him to seeing. and he has good odds to do it once he's check-raised &amp; there are more bets in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you checkraise him he is going from 7:1 to 3.5:1 so you would be making his odds worse. Calling $1 is harder than calling .50

[/ QUOTE ]


6.5SB to start.
i check, he bets- 7.5SB
i raise - 9.5SB in the pot.

1 bet to him to see the turn...

[aK13]

I don't like betting the river. I think we're going to get called by hands that beat us more frequently than we get better hands to fold. At least if we check, we might induce a bluff/A to bet.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like betting the river. I think we're going to get called by hands that beat us more frequently than we get better hands to fold. At least if we check, we might induce a bluff/A to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this thinking is that A-high is never going to bet. A-high will take the free showdown everytime, so he will only bet hands that beat you when you check to him. He however will call the river with A-high since we might be bluffing or it might be a split (if he is a good player he knows that we aren't betting the river with A-high so it might be correct to check/fold.) But if he knows that we have the ability to check/fold 33, then it becomes correct for him to bet A-high and so on and so forth. When it gets to this level however, game theory dominates the game but against typical players who will call with A-high I'm betting here everytime.

Brad

[Maurader1]

easy fold?

[cockandbull]

i think Shillx will have answered this better than i can but here is my thinking behing the hand.

Loose aggro raise from (can't quite remember, but think its stealing range) could mean any two.

hero IMO calls (i like my hand)

flop KJJ

hero checks
lag bets (hey i've still got two cards)
Hero raises (haha, i think i have a better hand (although i figure villian has the better hand this time, with his flush +overcards))

lag calls (because he does)

turn j

hero bets (i'm strong)
Lag should fold...figuring your correctly for a full house

[cockandbull]

I've just been looking at the posts made in this thread...while what is being said is good vs a good player, i figure that vs a loose aggro the line i suggested would work the best. Reasons being i very highly doubt players at 1/2 are capable of adjusting their bluff freq. For me the only real question for which i have no answer, should you have taken the line i suggested, is what to do on the river?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the correct way to play in this situation. In HU situations where I have a made pair, I usually find it correct to:

a) be the aggressor
b) assume my hand is good unless told otherwise by my opponent.

Nice hand!

[/ QUOTE ]

I too use your rules for playing pairs. I think it is one of the most important reasons why I am a winning player. At the river I cool down though, often check behind or check/call.