mike l.
11-27-2002, 06:55 PM
here's something i was thinking about the other day. would like to hear your thoughts my friends.
i think the rake in L.A. mid limit games is prohibitive to professional poker play. i have played nearly 2000 hours this year (a bit less) and estimate i have paid around $20,000 in time collection and rakes. i have played almost entirely mid limits where the rake is a time collection every half hour. i have gotten rake breaks (half or free, rarely free ride) at hollywood park, but almost no breaks at commerce where they are very strict and you have to pay the full collection, usually even when you havent played a single hand, but merely sat down and are waiting for the blind. where do i get the $20,000 figure? well i was playing a lot of 30-60 for awhile, and some 40-80. the hour time collection at commerce for 30 is $18 and $20 at 40, $16 at 20-40 and $14 at 15-30. it is $2 less per hour at hp where, as i said, they give more frequent breaks on the rake. i played very little 6-12 or 9-18 where the rake is a dead drop on the button of $4 plus $1 jackpot taken out of each pot. i did win $120 or something playing 9-18 earlier this year when a bad beat jackpot hit at our table. big whoop. i played even less online (from .05-.10 to 20-40) where the rake is out of the pot. anyway i think $10 per hour is a modest estimate given i mainly played 15-30 and up and mostly paid the full time collection. i have ignored other significant expenses like wear on my vehicles and gas driving to and from LA.
$20k a year is too much of an obstacle to overcome and still make it worth the time to go play. to be fair, i am not the best limit player in the world, but am very good, better than most, and a consistent winner. however i believe there is only an insiginificant handful of players who can beat these mid limit games in LA for enough to make it worth doing as a career. many good to very good players seem to consistently struggle to win enough to make their hours of time worth the effort. why go spend all that time and risk all that money to make $10-$15 an hour or less? it's not worth it and it's not close.
i am not going to go into the details of how many of the mid limit tables going in LA at any given moment SUCK. the fact is there are many players who are trying to play well and an even more disturbing number of players who do actually play well. sitting at a table w/ players who play decently even though they may have some small leaks, combined w/ the variance of games that tend to be more aggressive than in other locales, combined with the obscene rake is a losing proposition. if one thinks they are getting the best of it in this sort of scenario they are surely wrong.
from what i have seen the games in vegas at all levels are beatable provided the games are good and not full of pros and wannabee pros. the games in the bay area are a lower rake and the low limit games like 6-12 and 15-30 that ive played are very good. i dont know what the rake is like in AC or elsewhere. i believe that online poker is exploitable, however the games at paradise are much tougher than at other sites like planet from my experience and there are some special problems re: online play.
but L.A., the poker capitol of the world, is officially garbage. sure i will play for fun sometimes, but why spend so many hours each year to make so little unless you are a sick gambling addict who needs to spend every waking hour at the tables (i have seen MANY players who fit this description and many of them are good players). the large cardrooms in LA are great in some ways (24 hour action, many tables, rich players), but even as huge a poker market as LA is going to start to suffer under the weight of such a huge rake. i have noticed a very significant difference in the games in only one year (since they spoiled the low limits by adding the silly jackpot drop) and i foresee things only getting worse.
there is one thing im interested in: i would like to learn more about the collection pots at the 80-160 level and up (60-120 in vegas uses this too right?). is this a constant arrangement or just occasional? the 80 games at commerce look generally tough, but sometimes appear good, and if you could all but eliminate the rake from your poker career that level and up may be the way to go. any details would be nice snakehead or brier (or anyone else).
i think the rake in L.A. mid limit games is prohibitive to professional poker play. i have played nearly 2000 hours this year (a bit less) and estimate i have paid around $20,000 in time collection and rakes. i have played almost entirely mid limits where the rake is a time collection every half hour. i have gotten rake breaks (half or free, rarely free ride) at hollywood park, but almost no breaks at commerce where they are very strict and you have to pay the full collection, usually even when you havent played a single hand, but merely sat down and are waiting for the blind. where do i get the $20,000 figure? well i was playing a lot of 30-60 for awhile, and some 40-80. the hour time collection at commerce for 30 is $18 and $20 at 40, $16 at 20-40 and $14 at 15-30. it is $2 less per hour at hp where, as i said, they give more frequent breaks on the rake. i played very little 6-12 or 9-18 where the rake is a dead drop on the button of $4 plus $1 jackpot taken out of each pot. i did win $120 or something playing 9-18 earlier this year when a bad beat jackpot hit at our table. big whoop. i played even less online (from .05-.10 to 20-40) where the rake is out of the pot. anyway i think $10 per hour is a modest estimate given i mainly played 15-30 and up and mostly paid the full time collection. i have ignored other significant expenses like wear on my vehicles and gas driving to and from LA.
$20k a year is too much of an obstacle to overcome and still make it worth the time to go play. to be fair, i am not the best limit player in the world, but am very good, better than most, and a consistent winner. however i believe there is only an insiginificant handful of players who can beat these mid limit games in LA for enough to make it worth doing as a career. many good to very good players seem to consistently struggle to win enough to make their hours of time worth the effort. why go spend all that time and risk all that money to make $10-$15 an hour or less? it's not worth it and it's not close.
i am not going to go into the details of how many of the mid limit tables going in LA at any given moment SUCK. the fact is there are many players who are trying to play well and an even more disturbing number of players who do actually play well. sitting at a table w/ players who play decently even though they may have some small leaks, combined w/ the variance of games that tend to be more aggressive than in other locales, combined with the obscene rake is a losing proposition. if one thinks they are getting the best of it in this sort of scenario they are surely wrong.
from what i have seen the games in vegas at all levels are beatable provided the games are good and not full of pros and wannabee pros. the games in the bay area are a lower rake and the low limit games like 6-12 and 15-30 that ive played are very good. i dont know what the rake is like in AC or elsewhere. i believe that online poker is exploitable, however the games at paradise are much tougher than at other sites like planet from my experience and there are some special problems re: online play.
but L.A., the poker capitol of the world, is officially garbage. sure i will play for fun sometimes, but why spend so many hours each year to make so little unless you are a sick gambling addict who needs to spend every waking hour at the tables (i have seen MANY players who fit this description and many of them are good players). the large cardrooms in LA are great in some ways (24 hour action, many tables, rich players), but even as huge a poker market as LA is going to start to suffer under the weight of such a huge rake. i have noticed a very significant difference in the games in only one year (since they spoiled the low limits by adding the silly jackpot drop) and i foresee things only getting worse.
there is one thing im interested in: i would like to learn more about the collection pots at the 80-160 level and up (60-120 in vegas uses this too right?). is this a constant arrangement or just occasional? the 80 games at commerce look generally tough, but sometimes appear good, and if you could all but eliminate the rake from your poker career that level and up may be the way to go. any details would be nice snakehead or brier (or anyone else).