Call w/ AK early in the game?

[Misfire]

I can't say there's anything I dislike about this flop, but do I call for such a big chunk of my stack? Or should I put him on 2 pr or a set?


Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t60 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t3630)
CO (t980)
Button (t2805)
SB (t2245)
Hero (t1305)
UTG (t1025)
MP1 (t3010)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
MP1 calls t60, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t260</font>, MP1 calls t200, SB folds.

Flop: (t580) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t580</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero...

[Voltron87]

wtf?

[dmmikkel]

if he called that big of a preflop bet with KJ or maybe to make a set, let him have it

he might just have KQ

[microbet]

You raised too much preflop, IMHO.

Hitting TPTK and facing a pot sized bet I wouldn't fold. I would hope he would be less aggressive with a set.

You might be either so far ahead or so far behind that there is no good reason to raise. If he's behind, he's not likely to have more than 5 outs.

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the help.

[Sam T.]

What is the buy-in? Maybe the $109ers would lay this down, but I certainly wouldn't. Why did you check, if not to induce a bluff?

If you're going to fold now, fold pre-flop.

Sam

[Eihli]

I think he's asking you about your flop check?

[Nick M]

this is a classic case of slowplaying that leads to outplaying yourself. Move in, you have the best hand most of the time. I probably wouldn't of checked on the flop though.

[Matt R.]

I can't think of any situation, nor any level you could be playing at be it a $6 or $215 SNG, where this would be a fold. I'm guessing you're probably ahead here most of the time, or against another AK, as I think he would have bet less with AA, KJ, or a set. I'd have to see his cards before I could put him in the latter and fold the hand. Also, FWIW, I kind of like the flop check as it's probably a scenario where you're either way ahead (probably) or way behind (sucks, but possible) so I don't mind giving a possible free card to disguise your holding. Just push the flop after he bets into you. My guess is he has AK as well.

[valenzuela]

This is a clear call what do you want with ak? to hit a knig or an ace on friendly flop, u hit a freindly flop( no draws)and u hit a king, all-in baby!
edit: why do u check if u will fold to a raise, wtf are u doing? u need to have a plan and it doesnt look like u had a plan here

[Seadood228]

Precisely..

The only way I'm checking that flop is with the intention of pushing. Don't allow yourself to be second guessed.

[Jman28]

Push.

Twice.

[imported_LucasHall]

Thats a great flop for you...with the player limping in, and then smooth calling your raise, you should come out firing on that flop. Maybe a bet of 300 if you arent sure of yourself to see where your hand stands, although it should be dominating on that flop with his preflop play. You would expect a raise from pocket jacks preflop from him, and to put him on aces is giving him a lot of credit, and for him to bet out with a set that hard is not very likely, and if he has K J, well then that just sucks haha

[treeofwisdom7]

you guys have mentioned a plan. maybe this is one leak i have. i dont have a plan and i very well might make mistakes like this one.. can plans like this one be formed in most situations ... ex. how i'll play a flush draw to the end?

[imported_LucasHall]

Well you should always put your opponent on a hand...there are so many factors that should make you call or fold any hand at any time, whether it be betting patterns, observation on how a player plays, pot odds, raw strength of a hand, the odds of your hand hitting etc. Of course some hand just have general plays like AA, but otherwise you should always be gathering information from opponents, and form a plan of action from there

[NYCNative]

I'd bet he has slick too. Either way, you do not check that flop. You bet hard. Maybe you check a set to check-raise but TPTK is not strong enough to make such a move in most cases - this one, for instance, since you're confused when villain bet into you. You have to push at that point though.

[ripped]

I think this was played wrong from start to finish. The PFR was wayy too high.

The check on the flop is not good. Last thing you want is to give him a freecard to get 2 pair or maybe have him hit is set on the turn with a hand like 88 or 99. Bet about 1/3rd of the pot on the flop and if he plays back at you then you push or call his all in. Pretty simple.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this was played wrong from start to finish. The PFR was wayy too high.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. If this is a $5 or $10 tourney, then I think the play is great. PFR is enough that someone might actually fold, then when you hit your monster let the dork with AJ bluff away his stack with a check.

If this is a 20+, then yeah, that pfr is a little large unless we are dealing with a super loosey goosey. And I would not check the flop either.

[multifast1]

No one has mentioned the relative stack sizes yet either I don't think. The villian has a big stack of about 3K and hero has 1K before the hand.

Based on this, and the size of the flop bet, villian is making a play with little or nothing. He is isolated heads up against a relative short stack and makes a bet after hero checks the flop that can only be called if hero is trapping big time with. If he made 2 pair or a set on the flop, I can't see him wanting to push hero out when heads up with a bet of 2/3 hero's remaining stack.

Push back in a heartbeat. It's either a stone bluff or he's trying to protect a weak made hand.

[ChipLeaderer]

The PFR was 4xBB which seems reasonable? Maybe I'm missing something

But yeah, checking on the flop was a mistake. Bet 1/3 to 1/2 the flop.

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this was played wrong from start to finish. The PFR was wayy too high.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. If this is a $5 or $10 tourney, then I think the play is great. PFR is enough that someone might actually fold, then when you hit your monster let the dork with AJ bluff away his stack with a check.

If this is a 20+, then yeah, that pfr is a little large unless we are dealing with a super loosey goosey. And I would not check the flop either.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a $5, and I figured 4xBB was a decent raise preflop, but the concensus seems to be that it was high. What should I be raising here?

As for the flop, I had the intent of checkraising, but the size of his bet kinda took me by suprise and I wasn't sure if I wanted all my chips in this early. I wouldn't have been terribly suprised if he had called my PF raise with 77 or KJ. In the end I followed through and pushed. He showed KQos.

[Unarmed]

Slowplaying a K high flop is bad, its real bad if you're one of those Harrington people that autobets whiffed flops.
However, if you check a whiffed AQ here most of the time I don't mind the check.

[curtains]

The preflop raise is fine IMO, especially after a preflop limper (I think its about the exact amount I would raise). The flop is basically your dream flop and there is no way that all your money won't go in if given the oppurtunity.

[ripped]

it is over 4x the BB. 4x the BB is 240. He raised to 260.

[DeathbySuckout]

[ QUOTE ]
it is over 4x the BB. 4x the BB is 240 plus 2 limpers . He raised to 260.

[/ QUOTE ]

His PFR was fine.

[GtrHtr]

I don't have any real problems with the PF raise - but you have to assume you will get at least one caller.

What was the point of checking the flop?

Following his raise, you need to push, push, push. In fact, push the chips from the player next to you as well.

[barry111]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a classic case of slowplaying that leads to outplaying yourself. Move in, you have the best hand most of the time. I probably wouldn't of checked on the flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the PFR is fine
Yea the mistake is checking the flop, unless your intention was a CR.

The villian has you on a Med PP and thinks the K or J are scare cards for you. He is trying to use his big stack to push you off the pot.

my 2 cents

[Misfire]

[ QUOTE ]
Slowplaying a K high flop is bad, its real bad if you're one of those Harrington people that autobets whiffed flops.
However, if you check a whiffed AQ here most of the time I don't mind the check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read Harrington yet. Could you explain?

[AKQJ10]

Harrington would say that since you're the lead rasier preflop, if you miss the flop entirely but you suspect everyone else did (or you're in last position and it's checked to you), you should make a "continuation bet" of ~50-75% of the pot. At least that's what i'm recalling by memory as a NLHE beginner.... I'm sure others can correct my application.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]

I haven't read Harrington yet. Could you explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Harrington doesn't say that you should autobet missed flops. He says that on a non-scary board, putting out a continuation bet (or a probe bet) gives you a good chance at taking it down. If you raise with pocket nines preflop and the board comes out Ad Kd Jd, it's check/fold time.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys have mentioned a plan. maybe this is one leak i have. i dont have a plan and i very well might make mistakes like this one.. can plans like this one be formed in most situations ... ex. how i'll play a flush draw to the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

this might be the biggest seperator of a moderately winning player and an expert. having a plan is absolutely essential to playing the later streets in poker. i cant tell you how many times in the high stakes nl section i see top notch players asking a poster what their plan was if etc. happens. if i were you, id work on this until having a plan is automatic. your bankroll will thank you for it.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, Harrington doesn't say that you should autobet missed flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, a very important point i neglected to mention.

"Autobet missed flops" to me says that any time i'm in last position and everyone checks to me, i bet. The problem with that, of course, is that anyone who wants to check-raise with as little as top-pair-decent-kicker or even less can rest assured they won't be giving any free cards, once they've detected your autobetting.

That's not really what Harrington is advocating, we agree.