Using in-game stats

[IGMorton]

Which player stats are most important for 6-max in-game decision making? How many can you get by with (avoiding unnecessary screen clutter in Player View / Poker Office live tracker on-table info)?

What is the order of importance / order you prefer to view them on-screen?

Eg: VPIP/PFR/ASB/DB/AFP

VPIP = % voluntarily put money in pot
VPIPSB = % vpip from small blind
FS = % flops seen
PFR = % preflop raise
ASB = % attempt to steal blinds
DB = % defended blind steal
WSD = % went to show down
WAS = % won at showdown
AFP = aggression total postflop
AFF = aggression on flop
AFT = aggression on turn
AFR = aggression on river
WR = win rate BB/100

[Wynton]

I want to know also.

[Surfbullet]

Here's my setup:

<ul type="square"> VP$IP
PFR
Total Hands
Folded BBto steal
att to steal
total AF
went to SD%
won $ @ SD
check-raise %
[/list]

Total hands is very important b/c it sucks to make plays based on 8 hands of info.

went to SD and won at SD work together well - someone that goes to SD 60% but wins 30% is a huge calling station...someone who goes to SD 60% but wins 60% is on a rush.

I used to have street-by-street AF, but it's really meaningless without a big sample, so I just use it to get a feel for what type of player they are. 0.3-0.5 I'll respect turn raises etc, but I try not to alter my calldown policy based on big AFs, b/c they get inflated by fit or fold strategies.

Folded BB to steal is important in SH IMHO, because there are 20/10s who defend their blinds assiduously, while there are 50/10s who fold their bb 50% of the time.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

win-rate is worthless. flops seen doesn't provide any information that VP$IP and folded BB to steal don't.

Surf

[TMFS9]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my setup:


VP$IP

PFR

Total Hands

Folded BBto steal

att to steal

total AF

went to SD%

won $ @ SD

check-raise %



[/ QUOTE ]

except I have aggression per street.

[Wynton]

How about folded at river?

[Isura]

I use VP and PFR regularily. Sometimes look up blinds defense, went to showdown during a hand. BUt I only 2 table now and use crappy gametime.

[TMFS9]

I've never experimented with folded at the river, and It might be helpful to try. I think there might be a strong correlation with went to showdown. One side note is you might need a quite large sample size for folding at the river to be reliable. But's it's something that I will try out.

[Lost Wages]

My PV setup:
VPIP/PFR/WSD/AFP/CR%/Total Hands

Shows you the 4 basic dimensions: preflop loose-tight/passive-aggressive and postflop loose-tight/passive-aggressive. CR% is useful to see how likely you are to be checkraised if you bet. Total hands gives you a feel for how accurate your numbers are. For the steal/defend stats I use the hotspots as I'm really only interested in the defend for the players to my left and the steal for the players to my left. Street by street aggression is also on my hotspot but I don't bother looking at them unless I have hundreds of hands on an opponent. WAS and WR are useless IMO.

Lost Wages

[IGMorton]

For those of us using Poker Office, we don't have access to % Went to showdown or % Won at Showdown (yet - they are planned for future update). But, we do have "Folded River to bet" which i'll call FRB.

If FRB is high, VPIP high, and AFP high- perhaps this player likes to bluff a lot. i might tend to reraise with any decent hand.

If FRB is high, VPIP high, and AFP low - perhaps this player frequently goes too far with weak drawing hands like medium suited connectors or low suited kings. i might bet into him a lot to make him pay for those draws.

If FRB is high, VPIP is low, AFP is low - perhaps this guy doesn't like to play his strong overcards or call down with middle pair? i might play more agressively vs. him but fold when he bets.

If FRB is low, VPIP low, and AFP low - fold to his raises and don't bluff him?

If FRB is low, VPIP high, and AFP low - value bet this calling station with any pair or strong overcards?

If FRB is low, VPIP low, and AFP high - play tight against this solid player?

[TMFS9]

what is AFP?

[IGMorton]

AFP = aggression total postflop = (Raise % + Bet %) / Call % total from flop/turn/river.

i posted that abbreviation in the original thread... just because not all stats programs use the same abbreviations. i believe that's the same as PT total agression (does not include preflop).

[TMFS9]

Yeah that what I thought, just making sure, didn't know if pokeroffice had some other statistic. I'm going to do a little bit of experimenting with it, piggy backing off of your analysis of course. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: now I know why i've never used the statistic, it's because PV doesn't display it. Oh well.

[rmarotti]

I use # of hands, VPIP, PFR, TotAgg(not broken out by street) and WSD.

[arkady]

i would strongly advise to steer away from this type of poker. Things are not as systematic as you make it out to be, nor should they be.

The three numbers you need to know are:
vpip - so we can put him on a range of hands
pfr - can we 3 bet with marginal hands or not.
total hands - how valid is this sample.

this should be used as an AID, nothing more nothing less. Too many people are using these real time numbers as a crutch and it is hurting their game.

[Wynton]

I was hoping someone would debate this. It can't be me, since I barely use the stats (though not for any principled reason).

But I'm looking forward to someone pressing the issue.

[IGMorton]

hey there old friend /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
i would strongly advise to steer away from this type of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you mean 6-max in general? or rather, stay away from learning to play by numbers rather than reads by observation?

[ QUOTE ]
The three numbers you need to know are:
vpip - so we can put him on a range of hands
pfr - can we 3 bet with marginal hands or not.
total hands - how valid is this sample.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. so, if your screen flashed a neon blinking light everytime the person to your left folded 95% to a blind steal you wouldn't use that information? why not keep his fold percentage handy?

[ QUOTE ]
Too many people are using these real time numbers as a crutch and it is hurting their game.

[/ QUOTE ]

advice well taken. i'll try not to read too much into most stats. but, do you truly think even the "total agression factor" that most 2+2 posters include is not important?

[helpmeout]

This is exactly what I use.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]

advice well taken. i'll try not to read too much into most stats. but, do you truly think even the "total agression factor" that most 2+2 posters include is not important?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is not that the information is invalid...it's just replacing good poker sense. People are being faced with a turn raise and instead of reviewing their opponent's hand ranges and likely holdings, they are looking at his turn AF and seeing 8 and thinking "well, he raises alot. I should call down." This type of thinking will severely stunt one's development as a poker player.

Surf

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

advice well taken. i'll try not to read too much into most stats. but, do you truly think even the "total agression factor" that most 2+2 posters include is not important?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is not that the information is invalid...it's just replacing good poker sense. People are being faced with a turn raise and instead of reviewing their opponent's hand ranges and likely holdings, they are looking at his turn AF and seeing 8 and thinking "well, he raises alot. I should call down." This type of thinking will severely stunt one's development as a poker player.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I also think live stats are invaluable to my play. VP%IP and PFR are by far the most useful. I do think you can squeeze a BB out of PFAG, ASB, FBB once in a while. FWIW I rely on stats much more than your average HUSHER.

Krishan

[motorholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
Which player stats are most important for 6-max in-game decision making? How many can you get by with (avoiding unnecessary screen clutter in Player View / Poker Office live tracker on-table info)?

What is the order of importance / order you prefer to view them on-screen?

Eg: VPIP/PFR/ASB/DB/AFP

VPIP = % voluntarily put money in pot
VPIPSB = % vpip from small blind
FS = % flops seen
PFR = % preflop raise
ASB = % attempt to steal blinds
DB = % defended blind steal
WSD = % went to show down
WAS = % won at showdown
AFP = aggression total postflop
AFF = aggression on flop
AFT = aggression on turn
AFR = aggression on river
WR = win rate BB/100

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi IGMorton

Maybe you are looking at this question from the wrong angle.

What if you got consensus that 5 of the categories were essential, and the others did not matter that much. I assume you'd go with the 5 categories for your set-up.

But, how would that help you. You would be using categories that "others" thought were important. Try thinking about it this way.... What stats are helpful to YOU when trying to get reads on players? What do YOU find helpful to see?

Use those stats and ditch the rest. There is really no use having any stats available unless you yourself have decided that they will impact your decision making, no matter how much other players use them.

Why don't you rate the list you have in priority of prefence for you, and then include as many as you can off that priority list until it becomes info overload.

For example, I never use Flops seen, and VP from the SB. Others, however, might find these usefull in favour of other ones that I view. It's up to each person.

Also, I think you can change your view depending on weaknesses or gaps in your game. If you feel you are not attacking blinds enough (for example), and want to step it up, then you might find that some stats are important for working on this.

Good luck, and I hope you fnd the right mix for you

[arkady]

I am speaking in terms of 6max. I believe in full games numbers are more helpful since more people play ABC. 6max is different, here it is more personal.

That being said, total AF is pretty much meaningless, because just like your other number mentioned (folded to BB steal) takes a good while to converge. Furthemore what AF means is hard to really use wisely, AF between 1 and 3 can mean a whole slew of stuff. Obviously if i have a 1k sample and a .4 AF guy raises me on the turn on a non-coordinated board, maybe I will fold TP. Even then knowing the range of your opponent's turn raising is far more crucial than knowing some numbers.

To share more personal advice, I find gametime numbers to be useful on extremes. Like PFR 10; AF .5; vpip ~ 40. I would generally play this guy very straight forward and fold to his donkbets/raises.

On another example; PFR 30; AF 3-4; vpip ~ 45. I will call this chump down w/A high. Everything in between, notes, notes, notes, notes, notes.

I am pulling some of these numbers out of my arse, but I think it serves to illustrate a point.