Small PPs from EP/MP

[bozlax]

These hands are nothing but trouble for me. Typically, I call PF if it's only one bet to me, so I'll call a raise after me if it's not re-raised. If it's 2 to me PF at any time, I'll fold. Sometimes I'll raise (blind steal, isolate a particularly loose raiser, etc.), but not often.

Then I feel silly, especially if I called a PF raise, releasing the hand UI on the flop. Here's an example:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero ?

Not a scary board, particularly. I'd continue here with, for instance, A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif. If I had 88, I'd raise, maybe even 66, but I feel compelled to throw away 33. Weak-tight? Just plain stupid?

Edit: for the sake of discussion, pretend the PF raiser isn't still yet-to-act.

[gharp]

I'd fold here. Someone betting into a PFR usually has something, and you have just about nothing. Even if you have the best hand now, you're very likely to be outdrawn.

I just saw your "for the sake of discussion" part (PFR not yet to act) -- I'd still fold. I think a lot of the value of small pocket pairs is how easy they are to get away from if you don't flop your set. This is a good time to bail.

[moot]

I'd let it go. UTG likes his hand enough to bet and there's still the CO behind you who could hold an overpair. There's a 2 flush and your hands not going to get any better.

In raised pots where you have a chance to play heads up with position, there's an argument to be made for taking a stand with your pocket pair when all low cards fall (based on the odds that you opponent has 2 unpaired high cards).

It's not the case here though.

[LowDown22]

I think its an easy fold. If the bettor has a 9 or 7 you have 2 outs, not good. Even if he doesn't, then someone afer you could, or have even better. Major reverse implied odds with this hand too because virtually any card could be bad for you beyond this point except the 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

[txdolly]

I think it depends on the type of player you make the CO to be. Small PP love multiway pots if you and two others take the pot my line would be to fold if there is a bet to me and I didn't make the set. The pot's too small to be fighting over with only a small PP. IMO

[deception5]

Preflop I play the same.

On the flop, I fold here. I'd also fold 66 even with the bds draw. The problem here is 2-fold. First is that UTG is betting into the preflop raiser who hasn't acted yet. Second is that there are 2 overcards, and if you are behind you have almost no chance of improving.

With 88 you have a backdoor straight draw and better than second pair. You very possibly have the best hand already and have a draw (albeit a weak one) if not.

With AQ (with one heart) you have a backdoor flush draw and if someone is betting with top or second pair you have overcards giving you as many as 7.5 outs.

[irishpint]

Small PP (&lt;6) are ONLY valuable in a few situations:

1. Against many players and you hit your set, or have odds to draw to the turn/river.

2. You raise preflop from late position to steal blinds. If that doesn't work, bet the flop and try to take it there. If called on the flop I usually check/fold turn.

If you have a small PP and the flop is 4 way and you miss everything or didn't raise preflop i check/fold. Raising preflop and betting the flop, against 1-2 players works often because they dont know if you have 33 or AA. Against 4 someone usually has a hand worthy or playing for a bet.

My thoughts. Can you tell i have finals in 2 hours?

[2+2 Junkie]

I would fold here as well. I do the same with small/medium PP. I just try to see the flop for one bet, and fold UI for the most part.

Anyone have any suggesstions as to this type of play? Too loose (calling with any pocket pair from any position as long as no raise)? Or are there some factors to consider when playing small/medium pocket pairs?

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold here as well. I do the same with small/medium PP. I just try to see the flop for one bet, and fold UI for the most part.

Anyone have any suggesstions as to this type of play? Too loose (calling with any pocket pair from any position as long as no raise)? Or are there some factors to consider when playing small/medium pocket pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is exactly the issues with small PP in EP/MP -- you don't KNOW if there will be a raise behind you. One of the reasons that you can play these (the 33, for instance) in LP is that there a much smaller chance of being raised behind. If you limp from EP and there's a raise after you (much more likey when there are 5 or 6 players left to act PF), then you're already in trouble, being forced to call a raiser with just a tiny PP (even though, hopefully, you have a nice-sized pot at this point so the pot odds are probably not too shabby).

Then, to make matters worse, you're definitely acting before the raiser on the rest of the betting (unless he was in one of the blinds), so unless you hit your set, you're just check/folding. And even if you do catch a set but there are scary overs, you're probably playing a little scared the rest of the hand.

I say toss anything below sevens unless you're LP.

[deception5]

One more thought, this might be a raise on a paired board. And in regards to the edit, if the pfr wasn't yet to act I would still fold.

Sklansky makes a point in HEPFAP about a pair of 2's which is applicable to 3's as well (which LowDown alluded to). The problem is you don't know what you are afraid of here as any card that falls is dangerous. All of your opponents have overcards to your pair and you will win very little if they don't hit (and you are drawing nearly dead if they do hit).

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is exactly the issues with small PP in EP/MP -- you don't KNOW if there will be a raise behind you. One of the reasons that you can play these (the 33, for instance) in LP is that there a much smaller chance of being raised behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point as well. The lower the pfr% of the table, the more likely I would be to limp in with these in ep.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
I say toss anything below sevens unless you're LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you are kidding.
Horrible advice for normal microlimit tables if you are not.

[tiltaholic]

this is an easy fold w/33.
it happens.

is this really "nothing but trouble"?
with small pps you either flop well or you don't.
if you had 22, would you feel bad on that flop?

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say toss anything below sevens unless you're LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you are kidding.
Horrible advice for normal microlimit tables if you are not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not kidding, just tight. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say toss anything below sevens unless you're LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you are kidding.
Horrible advice for normal microlimit tables if you are not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not kidding, just tight. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Then, you almost definitely have a leak (or table selection ambivalence). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's 2 to me PF at any time, I'll fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this line. The pot is usually big enough for you to call 2 in this case. Plus you've got two people in the pot who like their hands and will help you build a big pot when you hit your set.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say toss anything below sevens unless you're LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you are kidding.
Horrible advice for normal microlimit tables if you are not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not kidding, just tight. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Then, you almost definitely have a leak (or table selection ambivalence). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I've been working with GSIH the last few weeks (have not hit SSHE yet) and I'm pretty sure (although I don't have it in front of me) that calling with 22-66 in EP is not recommended. Obviously, Ed says that his starting hand guidelines are geared more towards beginners (that would be me) and that the guidelines are likewise geared towards tight play.

I assume that SSHE recommends calling any PP against a weak/tight table?

[moot]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this line. The pot is usually big enough for you to call 2 in this case. Plus you've got two people in the pot who like their hands and will help you build a big pot when you hit your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think most pocket pairs are playable for 2 provided you know that pot is going to be a least 5 handed or more.

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this line. The pot is usually big enough for you to call 2 in this case. Plus you've got two people in the pot who like their hands and will help you build a big pot when you hit your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think most pocket pairs are playable for 2 provided you know that pot is going to be a least 5 handed or more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. The reason I'm calling two back when I already have money in the pot is that the pot is usually huge now. If you're yet to act, you want cold callers in between yourself and the raiser to cold call yourself. If the pf raiser is on your immediate right and you hit your set, you'll have to face the field with two bets at some point, which sucks.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say toss anything below sevens unless you're LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you are kidding.
Horrible advice for normal microlimit tables if you are not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not kidding, just tight. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Then, you almost definitely have a leak (or table selection ambivalence). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I've been working with GSIH the last few weeks (have not hit SSHE yet) and I'm pretty sure (although I don't have it in front of me) that calling with 22-66 in EP is not recommended. Obviously, Ed says that his starting hand guidelines are geared more towards beginners (that would be me) and that the guidelines are likewise geared towards tight play.

I assume that SSHE recommends calling any PP against a weak/tight table?

[/ QUOTE ]

read the post by stheif a lot.
stheif lays it down. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=1656773&amp;fpart =1&amp;PHPSESSID=)
if you have 100 micro posts and have been reading the majority of this forum for a month then you are not that much of a beginner, imho. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
if you had 22, would you feel bad on that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously not. Nor would I feel bad with 77 or 99 /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Nor would I have any question about throwing it away on a flop of, say, A94 or K62. It's the combination of missing the flop and not having any high cards on the table that makes me nervous.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this line. The pot is usually big enough for you to call 2 in this case. Plus you've got two people in the pot who like their hands and will help you build a big pot when you hit your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think most pocket pairs are playable for 2 provided you know that pot is going to be a least 5 handed or more.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'd appreciate it if someone could help me learn the math here because, and maybe i'm wrong, i would fold to 2 back here. the 2 math facts i think i know are

1. you are getting 1:4.5 to cold call - (this is assuming the 3-bet comes from BB, UTG calls and MP doesn't cap)
2. 4% chance to hit.
i don't know where to go with those facts though /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

to OP: i wouldn't have played 33 from MP with only 1 person in from UTG unless i was sure it would get ( i thought ) around 4+ in it. it's too low and you really don't want to be paying a lot to see the flop. someone correct me please if any of this is mistaken.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you had 22, would you feel bad on that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously not. Nor would I feel bad with 77 or 99 /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Nor would I have any question about throwing it away on a flop of, say, A94 or K62. It's the combination of missing the flop and not having any high cards on the table that makes me nervous.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh. you should be nervous. your hand is as vulnerable as it gets. and since all of your opponents are unlikely to fold before the river, your hand stands a large chance of not being the best hand by the river....so it's an easy fold...

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this line. The pot is usually big enough for you to call 2 in this case. Plus you've got two people in the pot who like their hands and will help you build a big pot when you hit your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think most pocket pairs are playable for 2 provided you know that pot is going to be a least 5 handed or more.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'd appreciate it if someone could help me learn the math here because, and maybe i'm wrong, i would fold to 2 back here. the 2 math facts i think i know are

1. you are getting 1:4.5 to cold call - (this is assuming the 3-bet comes from BB, UTG calls and MP doesn't cap)
2. 4% chance to hit.
i don't know where to go with those facts though /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

to OP: i wouldn't have played 33 from MP with only 1 person in from UTG unless i was sure it would get ( i thought ) around 4+ in it. it's too low and you really don't want to be paying a lot to see the flop. someone correct me please if any of this is mistaken.

[/ QUOTE ]

see link to stheifs post that i posted in this thread.

4%? you are 7.5:1 to hit your set = about 12%

[Delphin]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I've been working with GSIH the last few weeks (have not hit SSHE yet) and I'm pretty sure (although I don't have it in front of me) that calling with 22-66 in EP is not recommended. Obviously, Ed says that his starting hand guidelines are geared more towards beginners (that would be me) and that the guidelines are likewise geared towards tight play.

I assume that SSHE recommends calling any PP against a weak/tight table?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe SSHE recommends only 77+ in EP at a "tight" table. I find that the tight table recommendations work best for me even at looser tables, because my post flop play still needs a lot of work.

I noticed I was losing with 22-66 in EP after nearly 10k hands, and I usually won't play them anymore. In MP and LP I do fine with all pocket pairs. When I get more comfortable with my post flop play I'll probably try adding them back in at looser/more passive tables.

[aK13]

I typically limp all low PP in early/mid position, and am ready with the check/fold button usually. Sometimes I'll take a stab at a pot, but OOP sucks.

I'll dump some of these preflop if the tables are not &gt;30% VPIP.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]

if you have 100 micro posts and have been reading the majority of this forum for a month then you are not that much of a beginner, imho. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I have managed to just about triple my BR in the last 6 weeks or so almost exclusively at micros, so I guess I'm not a total beginner.

I just am aware of the volume of stuff I don't know and/or am not using fully at this point.

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
read the post by stheif a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice job. I've used what I learned in that post a couple times today in advice I've given (without giving credit, of course.) Interestingly, the OP in that thread started a new thread today with a question that is covered by stheif's post. I guess he didn't read it.

That's one of my favorite posts ever, because besides giving me some simple preflop rules to follow, it helped me understand the game in general, especially the value of position.

[imported_Reaction]

[ QUOTE ]
read the post by stheif a lot.
stheif lays it down. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=1656773&amp;fpart =1&amp;PHPSESSID=)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a f'n great link... I'd love to see this in the next revision of -mmbtOne's Microlimit Collection

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
4%? you are 7.5:1 to hit your set = about 12%

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i printed it out, but i haven't read it. we're 7.5:1? how do you get that? 2 cards remaining in the deck with 50 unseen. 2/50=.04 = 4% where am i messing this up?

if you are 7.5-1 and you're getting 4.5-1 to cold call (in my previous postings not the original post), then wouldn't we cold call 2 since we'll win more in the long run? or am i completely butchering this? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Edited due to math retardation /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[davelin]

Fold especially with the original raiser behind you.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
4/50=.04 = 4% where am i messing this up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...you need a little brush up on your math!

[Rosencrantz1]

I believe because we're talking about three cards, you have to work out the odds of it NOT hitting each of those three, multiply and subtract from 1.

That would be 1-(48/50 * 47/49 * 46/48)=1-.882 or about 12%

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4/50=.04 = 4% where am i messing this up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...you need a little brush up on your math!

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, this is why i shouldn't type and think at the same time /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe because we're talking about three cards, you have to work out the odds of it NOT hitting each of those three, multiply and subtract from 1.

That would be 1-(48/50 * 47/49 * 46/48)=1-.882 or about 12%

[/ QUOTE ]

but we're not playing to river with these pocket pairs plus to see if the 12% is worth it (if you are going to call all the way to the river), don't you then have to try and calculate implied odds and how many bets you're going to have to call if you play to the river?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe because we're talking about three cards, you have to work out the odds of it NOT hitting each of those three, multiply and subtract from 1.

That would be 1-(48/50 * 47/49 * 46/48)=1-.882 or about 12%

[/ QUOTE ]

but we're not playing to river with these pocket pairs plus to see if the 12% is worth it (if you are going to call all the way to the river), don't you then have to try and calculate implied odds and how many bets you're going to have to call if you play to the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

He gave you the odds for three cards i.e. just the flop.

[@bsolute_luck]

okay, so what 3 cards are we talking about then because i was confused about that when he posted it. we have pocket 3s, what is the 3rd card?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
okay, so what 3 cards are we talking about then because i was confused about that when he posted it. we have pocket 3s, what is the 3rd card?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's giving you the chances that at least one of the three cards on the flop is a 3.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
okay, so what 3 cards are we talking about then because i was confused about that when he posted it. we have pocket 3s, what is the 3rd card?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's giving you the chances that at least one of the three cards on the flop is a 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

ahahah! wow! sorry i missed that. okay, thanks for the patient, kind replies /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

okay now that we've figured that out, if you go with my previous posting responding to if it gets reraised behind us and we have to cold call 2 preflop, a poster said it was worth it. is it? you're getting 4.5-1 to call right based on my example?

how does the 12% chance to hit correlate to what you have to call?

[davelin]

If it's about 7.5-1 to hit the flop and you have to call 4.5-1, you have to figure out will the bets you make up on subsequent streets be enough to make up for the odds "deficit" pre-flop. This is what implied odds is all about, you don't have the odds to make the "right" call so you're hoping subsequent action will make up for it. If you think you'll easily make it up on post-flop, then the call is fine.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's about 7.5-1 to hit the flop and you have to call 4.5-1, you have to figure out will the bets you make up on subsequent streets be enough to make up for the odds "deficit" pre-flop. This is what implied odds is all about, you don't have the odds to make the "right" call so you're hoping subsequent action will make up for it. If you think you'll easily make it up on post-flop, then the call is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

easy enough i think. thanks for the help.